“…pressure is growing on Commons Speaker Michael Martin to resign for his handling of the expenses scandal.
It has emerged that the Liberal Democrats leadership is considering tabling its own motion of no confidence in him.” http://www.theherald
.co.uk/news/news/
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The Westminster parliament is in chaos. MPs have never been held in such low esteem. Looks like Michael Martin might be the first speaker in at least three centuries to be forced to resign his office. Michael Martin is a Catholic – although I’m not sure whether he is still a Mass-going Catholic. He certainly was at the time of his election as an MP – I remember it well, since he hails from the north of Glasgow where I grew up. I remember our priest’s delighted remarks about the good news that Catholic Michael Martin had been elected to Parliament. Just as well he didn’t own a crystal ball.
So, this latest media excitement, with the usual “will he, won’t he” (resign) got me thinking and this is what I’ve been thinking: are the Catholic MPs any less likely to have been dipping their fingers in the till, than any of the other MPs? Has Michael Martin the Speaker been the model of a Catholic layman, a role model of a Catholic in public life – or not?
Tell us what you think about the MPs’ expenses scandal by clicking on ‘comments’ now…
Tags: integrity, member of parliament, money, speaker
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This thread is posted at the explicit request of our crouchback. So, crouchback, where are you?
I can’t help mentioning at the outset of this thread, that, whatever the truth about the Catholic MPs, the Muslim MP who was the subject of a recent thread on this blog, Shahid Malik came to a sticky end over his expenses claims – did you all notice that? Very interesting. If you recall, he predicted that we would soon have a parliament full of Muslims… Little did he know when he said that, that he might not be among them!
But how many Catholics will follow him, I wonder. Looks like Speaker Martin may be first to fall…
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Anybody dipping into the cookie jar is guilty of dishonesty. In my experience, Catholics are not overly honest when it comes to their employers’ goods, nor are they overly truthful in sticky situations and seem to use the “mental reservations” clause to mental reserve themselves out of all sorts of difficulties. And that’s the good guys, the ones who even know what mental reservations are. I find Presbyterians and Brethern much more direct, straightforward and trustworthy. I bet that any Kirk going Brethern will not have dipped into that cookie jar! I’m not sure why that is, and maybe it’s a throw back to all those theologians trying to find a way for us to worm out of difficult situations, but as Brethren only have the Bible to follow they don’t have these suspect torturous routes. My own thoughts are getting torturous but I know what I mean even if you don’t! My husband, a convert, never ceases to be amazed at the dishonesty of Catholic professionals in many walks of life. He once said to me: “The Lord definitely cast his pearls among swine when he gave the fullness of the Faith to you lot.”
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semperfidelis, we have, as our Prime Minister, a “son of the manse”. There has been a question mark over his own expenses claims (£6,000 for a cleaner? Let me know when there is a vacancy). I don’t know the details of this (or even if I’ve got the figure right) but you’ll get my drift.
Another Presbyterian – David Steel – gave us the abortion law. I hardly think they have anything to teach us.
I do agree that Catholics – like everyone else – have easy consciences when it comes to taking home the odd paperclip from the office, mentality. That I do agree with. But to say that (Catholic) theologians “try to find a way for us to worm out of difficult situations” puzzles me. Which “theologians” – dissenters not counted. It has never been Catholic theology that it is acceptable to steal. To take food, e.g. if you have no other means of feeding yourself, ie in some sort of emergency situation but not to help yourself from the cookie jar. That is stealing and matter for Confession.
In the throes of the current crisis where we have defiantly disobedient bishops and weak priests, keen to obey the disobedient bishops for the purposes of furthering their “careers”, I would say that your husband’s quote stands up. But not in terms of stealing – there is nothing in Catholic teaching that allows anyone to steal with a clear conscience.
Having said that, I doubt very much if the Catholic MPs’ expenses will stand close scrutiny but that is more to do with their LACK of Catholicity (see their voting records on just about everything to do with morality) than with the mixed messages you perceive the Church to be teaching…
I’m thinking of standing for Parliament myself but don’t think Parliament would stand for me.
Would YOU vote for me, semperfidelis?
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semperfidelis
Are you having us on? You don’t seriously believe that Protestants are more honest in business life than Catholics, do you? This country is built on Freemasonry, to which many more Protestants than Catholics belong. They get each other good jobs and keep the Catholics at the bottom of the ladder.
Do you think any of the sons and daughters of the Manse who hold, or have held, government posts are truly honest? I don’t, not for one second.
I have seen first hand how this Protestant country operates at the highest levels with Catholics. I know of Catholic men in the police force who can’t reach a higher level in policing unless they commit a mortal sin and join the Masons.
I know of a very large engineering firm (now defunct, thank God) in which it was a regular policy of the night shift to go to the administration department and tear up the CV’s of Catholics.
I have worked with Protestant people who think nothing of stealing from their employers. In fact, I have just been informed that a local food store, which is known to employ only Protestants, has sacked two employees for stealing.
This country has always been run by Protestants and it is as corrupt as they come. Indeed, the government has once again downed any chance of a Catholic becoming monarch.
There is more than just financial dishonesty. See how Catholics have faired under Protestant governments in respect to morals, and you just try getting a Catholic article published in one of Britains many Protestant secular newspapers.
This is not to say that every Protestant is corrupt and dishonest, but it sure is a fact that there are many more corrupt and dishonest Protestants running business than Catholics.
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This is a very interesting piece on the subject of MPs expenses
http://www.melaniephillips.com/articles-new/?p=664 -
Athanasius,
Your post is very disappointing. It smacks of its own version of bigotry. I can only assume you have been dealt a poor hand at some stage in your life but please do not think either Protestants or Freemasonary have the same influence throughout Scotland – in that you do our country a great disservice.
Man is born to sin, Our Lord has saved us from Original Sin but unless we follow God’s Law to the fullest, then mortal sinners we remain – irrespective of what name we go by.
Are Catholics MPs any better or any worse? To me we must look at the individual not his religion. I suppose it could be argued that the older generation of Catholic MP grew up in pre VII days therefore armed with The Catechism, he should behave more honourably. Following that hypothesis it could then be construed that the younger Catholic MP, being brought up with today’s befuddled catechism, might be more prone to sinning. Does that hold up? Well, until the full disclosure of every MP’s expenses are made known and carefully examined we shall never know.
This thread then becomes mere speculation and perhaps unworthy in its own right as besmirching the characters of those individuals who have kept themselves out of the pigs trough. Making broad sweeping statements on the integrity of all MPs is akin to Athanasius’ rant – unworthy of a Christian blog.
The Speaker is the patsy (fall guy); necessary so Cameron and Clegg can claim a (im)moral high ground when certain MPs of their own party are also being found out. This is politics in all it’s glory – seek out the weakest link then stab, stab and stab again, preferably in the back, until your victim falls. Then, preen your feathers and proclaim how well you have done.
I’m not so concerned about the money aspect – it is the immorality of the body politic which is far more diabolical.
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Ruth Kelly, apparently a member of Opus Dei, features prominently in the Daily Telegraph of 18th May. Parliamentary laws may permit the feathering of one’s nest at the taxpayers expense, but is it morally sustainable? I wonder if the thought will cross her mind at her next confession?
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Athanasius,
In our country today there are Catholics, Protestants and secularists who unfortunately are immoral and dishonest when it comes to their business dealings. I’m sure everything you say in your above post is true, as it reflects many things I’ve experienced or heard about. However, we must be honest and admit that it goes on the other way as well. When I was sixteen, I applied for a job at a local leisure centre and never heard back from them. Somebody told me it was because I was (at that time) a Protestant. I didn’t believe them, but I soon came to realise that everyone I knew who worked there supported Celtic and went to Catholic schools. The irony!
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Benedict
Mark this day on the calendar: I agree with parts of your post, namely, that religion is no guarantee of integrity, and that Michael Martin is being thrown under the bus by others wishing to conceal their own corruption.
However, you have misinterpreted Athanasius’ post: he did not claim any special virtues for Catholics over Protestants in public office or in business. He was merely pointing out how Catholics have fared at the hands of Protestants and Freemasons in said venues. And I have heard similar first-hand stories here in the States. Therefore, for you to categorize his post as a “rant” is itself a “rant.”
By the way, is anyone familiar with the financial peccadilloes of one Jackie Smith, the MP who has banned American talk show host Michael Savage from the UK (and who is now suing her)?
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Torkay
Thank you for making clear my true intention. I do wish people would read the comments correctly before taking the opportunity to have a go. Benedict, take note!!
My response was to semperfidelis’ incredible statement that Protestants are, on the whole, more honest and honourable in business than Catholics. This is patent nonsense and I gave some examples to show that. I did not say at any time that all Protestants are corrupt or that Catholics are necessarily less corrupt. As the old addage goes “Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
I don’t think any of the four major banking figures brought before the Commons Select Committee, including Sir Fred Goodwin, are Catholic. I don’t think Maxwell was Catholic, nor any of the other pension swindlers. That’s my point.
As regards politics, there are way more non-Catholic politicians than Catholic ones in Britain. They’re not all Protestant, sure, but the country is completely morally bankrupt as a result of their corrupt stewardship.
So please folks, Benedict especially, please read carefully what I have written before making wild accusations of bigotry against me.
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sorry folks, “addage” should read adage.
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Tam,
Calendar duly marked – good job I was sitting down when I read your post! However you have to understand a wee bit more of the Scottish scene. There is a great big divide between the east and west and to what those unfortunate to reside in the west suffer from through bigotry. It simply does not occur to the same extent in the east; and I do the east and north an injustice in even stating the above.
Introibo, you are correct – it cuts both ways.
An American sueing ’cause he can’t get his own way – how typically pathetic. If he was a staunch political supporter of say Bin Laden would the USA be sued for not letting him in? Like it or not, each country does have the power to refuse admission to anyone.
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Athanasius,
I stand by my statement. Reread your post yourself and if you don’t think you have played the bigotry card then things are worse than I thought..
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Benedict and Introibo
I disagree that it cuts both ways. I think these are undoubtedly isolated examples of discrimination against Protestants but what we are dealing with here is systematic, institutionalised bigotry – which in the corridors of power in this country has traditionally been aimed at Catholics.
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Benedict
There was nothing bigoted in Athanasius’ post. It was based on historical fact.
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Petrus,
Yes, I was referring more to isolated cases. We do ourselves no favours by being dishonest. There are times when Protestants don’t get jobs in certain companies due to their religion. Rangers supporters are attacked after Old Firm games the same way that Celtic fans are. However, I do agree – the majority of discrimination in this country, both at an institutionalised and on a personal level is against Catholics. Having been both Protestant and Catholic, I have definitely been in far more situations where I felt looked down upon and unfairly stereotyped since I crossed the Tiber.
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Ah Petrus, I wondered when you would enter the scene, and of course no guessing with what.
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Benedict
Lets not make things personal – again!
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Michael Martin has been known to have had his snout in the trough for several years now, and is consistently arrogant and pompous in dismissing the right of anyone to question his handling of affairs. Not sure that’s the model we wanted for the first Catholic speaker of the Commons since the reformation, but then on several different measures I’m sure a composite average West of Scotland ‘Catholic’ could be a lot less flattering.
I do understand the point semperfidelis has made about the moral probity of certain Catholics and, in her citing presbyterians and brethren for comparison, I make the assumption she means more fundamentalist protestants than your average hatches, matches and dispatches at the kirk type, in so doing recognising a valid differential. In my imperfect situation of a mixed marriage, I have a sharp perspective on visible failings of some Catholics, and some limited room for learning from the example of certain protestants.
What I mean is that I have occasionally found myself in tricky situations, where otherwise good Catholics openly display contradictory failings such as cursing or regularly overindulging in alcohol – both areas where protestants are often rather puritanical. But as I mention, the average Catholic these days is somewhat more of this world, including priests, thus is at risk of going with the flow in matters of ‘fiddling the system’.
In terms of these politicians in general, these guys are absolutely arguing black is white in defending themselves, completely caught out because they thought they were able just to stop people finding out by making the rules themselves. I work in local government and am certain of one thing: if I added so much as an extra mile to by modest travel subsistence claim, or ‘erroneously’ claimed for a personal expense in any setting, it would be P45 firstly and finally. To suggest that repaying what has been ‘claimed in error’ is suitable restitution is wilfully missing the point; there is no doubt any other citizen would see their reputation torn to shreds for pilfering the small change, thus rendering them untrustworthy of dealing with bigger matters. Not that these sums are anything like small change, and we just need to look at their dealings with the banks to question how able this lot have been in dealing with significantly bigger numbers.
Torquemada,
Jacqui Smith’s fiddling of the expenses system was in the news a couple of months ago, her having claimed a room in her sister’s small flat in London is her main residence, whilst her husband (who claimed for blue movies on her expenses) and children live elsewhere.
That this chap was included on the list of those barred from visiting Britain is I believe just to throw in at least one non-muslim, since that is who it is really aimed at. The government seems scared of being seen to aim things at muslims, so search little old ladies etc. when looking for suicide bombers and I think this is what’s going on here.
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Crossraguel,
Spot on. Most Catholics and Protestants nowadays are in-name-only types. Really devout Protestants from the Gospel Hall or the Wee Frees take a very hard line stance on issues like gambling, drinking, smoking, dancing etc. and are far more virtuous (at least superficially, but in many cases in reality too) than your average man in the street. Mainstream Prots who go along to the Church of Scotland or the Episcopal Church on Sunday but never think about religion the rest of the time are likely to be just as worldly as most Sunday morning Catholics are.
Amongst the Catholic population, it’s hardly surprising that moral standards in any area of their lives have slipped since their religion has become infested with secularism and liberalism and their consciences are no longer being properly formed. This doesn’t excuse Michael Martin for breaking the natural moral law here, but in general I think this is the case. Devout traditional Catholics (as well as those who attend the NOM) can be saintly people, or they can be riddled with faults and failings. There’s nothing new about this, but I do think that living in an environment where proper Catholic teaching is emphasised constantly is conducive to virtue as well as piety.
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I made the following enquiry of someone who deals with crooks and criminals on a daily basis (I am on a friendly, I’m glad to say, footing with a number of legal eagles…) This is what I asked…
If an accused robber tried to make a deal with the Prosecution by offering to pay back the money he’s stolen, would that be the end of it? Would the charges be dropped? Answer: no way.
That’s what these crooked MPs should be told, whatever their religion
Ruth Kelly’s fiddling comes as absolutely NO surprise to me – the gullible Catholics who actually believed she lost her cabinet job because of her Catholic faith ought to be taken into care for their own safety. Her very first public statement on appointment to the cabinet was that she would not let her religion interfere with her politics and given that she was Education Secretary and the topic was sex education, we knew, at that stage, all we’d ever need to know about her (lack of) commitment to her religion.
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editor
You’re right, Ruth Kelly sold her Catholic religion down the river when she voted with the government to remove exemption from Catholic adoption agencies from the homosexual adoption bill. I do have to say, however, that I was a bit more impressed with the likes of Des Brown. He resigned on the basis of his Catholic Faith, although I can’t remember what exactly the Bill was that caused the conflict of interests.
I have never known of a non-Catholic to resign from government for any moral reason. But, then, the Protestant sects have never spoken out in any general way against divorce, homosexuality or abortion. The Wee Frees may take issue with one or other of these sins, but not all. Only the Catholic Church, dissenters aside, stands up for the laws of God.
Benedict
You’re quite wrong if you think that only the West of Scotland is bigoted against Catholics. I live in the East and I can tell you that Protestant bigotry is very much alive here.
When I left school I started a 4-year apprenticeship with the Cooperative. It was thanks to a friend of my mother that I got the job and became the first Catholic to be employed by this company in the town of West Calder. I was made to remember my place on many occasions, most often with bitter remarks about Catholicism. It shows how hateful some older men in their 30s and 40s were who reminded me, a 16-year-old lad, that there was only one person more vile than a Catholic and that was a Glasgow Catholic.
The town of Livingston, West Lothian, where I live, was very bitter when I moved here in ‘73. The annual gala day (community day) was led by the Orange walk band, which practiced in the local pub every week and marched regularly up and down the streets throughout the year.
I remember someone playing Danny Boy on the pub’s piano and having the lid shut on his fingers. They came here in droves from Ulster every year for the July 12th Orange celebrations.
Even today our streets are full of kids in Rangers shirts and track suits, not a Celtic shirt in sight, and every weekend the drunks stagger down the main road chanting ‘The Sash’ as loud as they can. Oh yes, the East is worse in its bogotry than the West in many respects, Benedict.
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“Our”…..”Our”….Crouchback,,,,haud on tae I get my tin hat on, there must be a rolling pin, in the hand bag…
PAYE (PAY AS YOU EARN) tax was as far as I know brought in as an emergency measure during World War II.
The MP’s are “claiming for expenses” because they are some sort of species of self employed personages. When I worked in London as an emplyee, I couldn’t claim against the various “second home” things you need to survive when living away from your real home.
When I worked for agencies as a “self employed” worker I could claim for meals, tools, accomodation…etc..etc. There was a thriving trade in false receipts, it was the only way you could make it pay. Needless to say I wasn’t getting the wages, or the expenses of an MP.
Every time YOU buy fuel for your car, they ask “Do you want a VAT receipt”, this is for self employed people, who can claim back Value Added Tax for “buissiness miles”
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Big Ben
“An American sueing ’cause he can’t get his own way – how typically pathetic. If he was a staunch political supporter of say Bin Laden would the USA be sued for not letting him in? Like it or not, each country does have the power to refuse admission to anyone.”
What Michael Savage (Yank talk show host) is objecting to is his name being placed on a list that includes terrorists, murderers, and the like. It is a defamation of character suit. His position is that he was placed there solely because he is a conservative and a vocal critic of Obama, and of liberals in general. You may recall the recent revelation that conservatives of varying beliefs have now been placed on a “potential threats to domestic security” list over here. Not to mention the recent report describing the UK as the world’s first “soft totalitarian state.”
Petrus
I have been thinking that Benedict’s typical attitude here is highly arrogant and condescending, as if he is here to teach all us schismatics and pseudo-sedevacantists a lesson. However, I’m beginning to wonder whether it is merely an exceedingly dry wit translated onto the page. Time will tell whether we need to lance his boil or just laugh at the size of it.
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Yes, Crossmaguel, I meant the more committed type of Brethren or fundamentalist if you like. The ones I know are scrupulously honest and a pleasure to know. I cannot say the same for the majority of my church going parishioners. In fact my husband says that the only clients who suggest “deals” (i.e. tax evasion) to him are Catholics. They see the pictures of the Pope and Our Lady on his wall and think they are on to a winner. I have never personally encountered any type of religious discrimination so I find that hard to take on board though I accept all that the sufferers of same have said. I’m not saying that Protestants are more virtuous than Catholics as that would be a ridiculous statement. All that I’m saying is that amongst all the church-going people I know, the Brethren (fundamentalists) are the most honest. They bring shame on us and our mental reservations.
Yes, editor, I would vote for you if you stood as a member of parliament if only to find you new pastures!
Athanasius, I feel your pain of living in the bigoted central belt. My own grandfather worked in Clydebank during the war and recounted hair raising stories of discrimination. However, I have never come across it, thank God, and so find it hard to understand. I stand chastised.
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Dearie me, the spell checker posted it before I was finished….any budy no how to spel Buziness.
…..Why should anyone pay 17% less for their petrol than you and me, just because they are in Business. In fact if they need a hand out for their fuel, maybe they shouldn’t be in business in the first place.
The PAYE tax scam could has much more profound affects. When the tax is removed from your wage packet, even before you can get your hands on your own money, most people, in fact every single person at work right now, have very little idea that, it was an “emergency measure” brought in at time of war.
If it was removed, and the tax man had to call and ask politely for your money, we might find that people, would demand more control over how it is used.Another thing, shouldn’t the Human Rights Act, have something to say about over mighty Government dipping it’s fingers in to our wage packets, even before we can..??
And last but not least, what about the Bishops, as leaders of the “community”, great Vatican II style word that, shouldn’t they be raising their voices requesting the Police to arrest common thieves. Not good enough for Speaker Martin to say sorry, there must be reparation as well.
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crouchback
The unfair use of Taxation to strip the people of a decent living has been going on since the time of Our Lord, and will doubtless continue till the end of the world. Only at their judgment will the greedy people discover the price they must pay for denying the working man a sustainable wage for himself and his family. It is rightly called a sin crying out to heaven for vengeance.
In the meantime we can only take the advice of Our Lord to the Jews of His time who complained about over-taxation: “Render to Caesar that which is Caesar’s and to God that which is God’s.” Our Lord was not justifying Taxation by these words, just warning us not to become inordinately involved in protesting the abuse of the Tax leviers. He will judge them in due course for their greed.
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semperfidelis
I understand where you’re coming from but it is impossible for me to believe that practicing Protestants are more vituous in their lives than Catholics, unless we accept that the devil has more reason to tempt those who have the grace of the true faith.
How is it possible to live a life of true virtue without the grace of the sacraments? This is not to say that some may not have this grace who appear to be separated from the Church (invincible ignorance), but in general we would have to say that it is near impossible, if not completely impossible, for the average non-Catholic to live virtuously without the grace that comes only through the Catholic Church. What appears to us superficially bears no resemblance to what God reads in the hearts of men.
As for Catholics who sin through dishonesty, yes, they are sinners, no question about it. But to all those who speak of the Church as being full of hypocrites I say, there is always room for one more. We would have no need for confession if we were already free of fallen human nature. At least the Catholic has confession to remove the stain of sin from his soul (assuming restitution, of course).
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Having lived in a fundamentalist Protestant area myself (the American “Bible Belt”) for almost 10 years, I can see semperfidelis’ point….to a point They appear to live by a very rigid moral code…that is, until you peek under a few of their stones. Then you find a lot of finger-pointing, false accusations, hatred of other religions (esp. the Roman Catholic one), back-stabbing, etc. Neither do they use the word “virtue.”
They are usually scrupulously honest in their business dealings, but rarely, if ever, a pleasure to know (in my experience). Also, their self-discipline is so rigid that sometimes they go off the deep end and just binge on various sins.
It is a kind of self-righteous self-loathing, if that makes any sense.
Also, as far as rendering unto Caesar what is Caesar’s, I think a modification of that axiom might be in order, considering who it is that controls governments these days – i.e. Satan.
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Athanasius,
If you believe Livingstone is in the East then yes yes whatever – your map of this beloved country is totally different from mine.
Wee Dr Tam,
Thanks for the offer of doctoring me but I will take my chances with BUPA. So you’ve come out of the closet and openly declared yourself; well I admire you but do not share your inclination. My wit? I think I’ll take the 1st or is it 5th or 29th or…. sorry but like the Editor I’m no good with numbers.
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Benedict, my geography is not too hot either but I do know my east coast from my west coast and let me assure you that Livingston, not a stone’s throw from Edinburgh, is on the east coast. Don’t fight it, Benedict.
Anyway, here’s some light relief…
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Athy, we are not on about “unfair” levels of tax. What we are talking about is criminal deception by every Government since 1945. PAYE was an emergency measure, how many people were robbed of their money by this scam.
All the really major moral evils that have wrecked our society, have been funded by “progressive” politicians, backed by a tidal wave of money provided by ignorant “proles” who didn’t know any better, and who’s offspring have died in their thousands as a result of all the “progressive” drug taking etc…etc…but all along supporting the NHS, and the Department of Education, even as these bodies laid waste to the country.We know exactly what you are talking about Torkay, I heard a guy say that he lived amongst a particularly strict bunch of self righteous protestants, on Sundays, nothing moved. Except when they went to church. On the way to church, they stopped in at their neighbours houses, for a wee refreshment, medicinal, of course, you’ll understand. Needless to say they were smashed long before they got any where near the Church.
But then 4 hours of self righteous, protestant, hypocrisy…..who wouldn’t want to be anesthetized
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Torkay
I agree with you entirely.
crouchback
I agree to some extent with you too.
Benedict
Stop reading your map upside down!!
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crouchback, watch it! We wouldn’t like someone to talk about “4 hours of self-righteous catholic hypocrisy” now, would we? Trust me, Protestants do not have a monopoly on hypocrisy. No way.
Indeed, in all of my working and social life, I’ve never met a Protestant I didn’t like and admire. Indeed, I liked them so much that I would have loved them to have come into the Church.
So, let’s not be like west coast bigots in the way we think and speak, crouchback. You’re bigger than that (despite your daft username!)
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Benedict and Athanasius,
My impression of Livingston is that it is a culturally west-coast town located in the east of Scotland. I’m sure our Aberdonian and Fifer friends wouldn’t regard it as “true” east coast, but West Lothian is normally regarded as being in the east. Because of the large Glasgow overspill that moved there, I’ve heard that it’s culturally a wee bit more west-coast than other nearby towns.
By the way Athy, it could be worse. You could be up the road in Harthill. Then you’d know about anti-Catholic sentiment!!
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editor,
Being a convert, I’d say that at least half of my friends are Protestant, or at least non-Catholic. The vast majority of Protestants I’ve come across in my working and personal life (since becoming Catholic I mean) have also been extremely likeable people. However I have been on the receiving end of many a disparaging comment, dirty look or smirk from SOME Prots, but overall I agree … it’s stupid to claim that we Catholics can’t be nasty, immoral or hypocrital, hence the reason for this blog in the first place!!
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editor
I agree that this is not a forum for Protestant bashing. I have many Protestant friends, good people, who I would also like to see enter the Church. My earlier point about Protestantism was not based on feelings of bigotry, but on the facts as I have experienced them.
In fact, there is more liklihood of the genuine church-going Protestant receiving the grace of salvation at their death than the apostate Catholic. So, yes, you’re absolutely right when you say that hypocrisy is by no means limited to Protestants. Every person who commits a wilful sin is to some degree or other a hypocrite and very, very few can exclude themselves from this fact, except me of course!!!!!!!
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introibo
Livingston had a huge overspill from the East end of Glasgow, which, as you doubtless know, is fiercely Protestant. However, Livingston was originally chosen as the place for that overspill because it too was fiercely Protestant.
Harthill is by no means an isolated case. Whitburn (next door to Harthill) has no Catholic church in it, nor did Livingston have a Catholic church when I first moved here. The local Catholics who grew up in the town (a very small number) had to walk eight miles to and from church every Sunday. The nearest Catholic church was in Catholic Bathgate. These people have told me some incredible stories of the persecution they suffered in the early days. So, yes, the Protestant overspill from Glasgow made the situation worse, but it was already very hostile to Catholics.
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Just wanted to point out that there is a huge difference between Protestant fundamentalists, who are called, generally, “evangelicals” over here, and mainstream Protestants (i.e. Lutherans, Presbyterians, Methodists, Congregationalists, what-have-you-ists). As huge as the difference between traditional Catholics and Novus Ordo Catholics – also, generally speaking. (No Benedict, I’m not implying that traditionalists are fundamentalists)
Someone referenced “Brethren” above – not sure who that describes in Scotland, but over here that is a reference to the Quakers. But not their oats.
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Just have to make a point of recording the fact that on this day, Glasgow born and raised Speaker of the House of Commons, Catholic, Michael Martin MP, resigned his office, with effect from 21 June, following this disgraceful scandal.
Between Glaswegians and Catholics, you can take your pick because there’s nothing to choose between them – shame, shame, shame on the lot of them!
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Notice how the only “churchmen” to comment on the enforced resignation of the Speaker, such as Archbishop Conti and the two Anglican “bishops” are concerned only about the “damage to democracy” which this “humiliation” of MPs might cause.
No concern at all that Michael Martin and his pals might lose their souls, that they have damaged the moral fabric of the land, nor is there any sense that democracy might just not be the best thing since sliced bread.
Unbelievable…
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our pp has just told me in confession that a wee white lie to spare someone’s feeling is not a sin. my dad says something is either true or it isnt and that there is no such thing as white lies.
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Michael, your Dad is right. Pray for your PP.
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I was reading in the Herald the other day about 2 MP’s who are whiter than white in this scandal. One didn’t even claim food expenses for 3 years; the other’s second home is a tiny spartan rented flat very scantily furnished. Well done, fellas! Must be good Catholics.
The first is a Muslim Glasgow MP.
The second a Protestant fundamentalist Glasgow MP.
All has not yet been revealed by the Telegraph and I’m sure Catholic MPs like David Alton would never be dishonest but the rest? Mmmmmmm.
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semperfidelis, what are the names of the two MPs who are “whiter than white”?
We know that one of the worst cases of dishonest MPs has been Ruth Kelly, member of Opus Dei, who claimed a pot of money (forget exactly the amount) which I remember thinking at the time it was reported, was loads more than the others. They seem to have no shame, blaming the system instead of owning up to their own greed.
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Rebel, one is Mohammed Sarwar (Glasgow Central) who apparently didn’t even claim his food allowance of over £400 per month amongst other laudable things.
The other is John Mason (Glasgow East) who apparently rents a tiny appartment as his second home and lives very frugally.
I didn’t hear that about Ruth Kelly (though I did hear something but can’t remember what) and I have been following it quite closely. Mind you, one day the newsagents ran out of the Herald so maybe that was the day she was reported on.
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That is very interesting indeed, semperfidelis. Both of those MPs are to be commended for their restraint.
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I heard Esther Rantzen interviewed on the radio when I was driving just now and, laughably, she said that the people “trusted” her hence her decision to run as an Independent in the next election.
This is a woman who could not be trusted with her pal’s husband, if you remember. Don’t people have short memories and skewed judgment?
Anyway, I thought the following links would be useful to post on any election thread although I’m not sure if any similar facility exists for MEP candidates. If anyone else finds one, please post it here. The more information we can gather about election candidates, the better.
The Christian Institute has a facility which allows you to check every MPs voting record on moral issues. They have a very simple code and it is a really useful tool to use at election times.
http://www.christian.org.uk/mpvotes.php
Just use the drop down menu to select your MPs name and then check his or her voting record.
You can also find out the name of your local MP and write to him/her via the WriteToThem facility
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