The latest report about alleged abuse of children in Irish religious institutions published today has generated predictable media interest, to put it mildly. Here’s the Telegraph report and please note, especially, that they have selected Bishop Pat Buckley to quote on the topic. Click here to read more
Oops! I forgot to put inverted commas round “Bishop” – because, of course, there IS no “Bishop Pat Buckley” in the Conference of Bishops of Ireland, just the dissenter who poses as a bishop (don’t laugh, now, it’s not nice). It speaks for itself that a “quality” newspaper would either not know that or, knowing that, fail to identify his non-episcopal status. Whether deliberately or not, then, The Telegraph is misleading readers.
Not so long ago, we recommended our readers purchase a copy of Hermann Kelly’s research into the allegations of child abuse in Ireland, exposing that there has been a culture of false allegations in the Emerald Isle – which is not to say that all allegations are false, of course. Not at all. Still, his book is well worth reading. Click here to read a review Then Click here to read an article about Hermann’s book
And here’s the BBC report for good measure – never let it be said that Catholic Truth is involved in any kind of cover-up.
Now, click on ‘comments’ with your views – we’d like to hear what you think about this latest report, the issues and the remedies…
Tags: child abuse, priests, religious
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There has always been child abuse and there always will be unless mankind repents and turns to God. Paedophiles and lechers have always targeted their prey in many different forms. I once knew a widow with young children who (innocently) married a paedophile who had deliberately targeted her to get at the children. The priesthood is a perfect disguise for these sort of people as is teaching, scouts etc. I’ve been told that a lot of abuse goes on in Britain in Muslim households where young girls are sexually abused. But, the BBC won’t report on that in case they fall foul of a suicide bomber!
I worked with the Legion of Mary in a Magadelene laundry in the late seventies. I was very close to many of these girls and I never once heard a story of abuse. Sure, some of these nuns had victorian ideas and the odd clout was delivered to some seriously badly behaved girls but, “retrospect” is a misleading thing and we must look at things the way they were then. Society has changed drastically in the last 35 years and so have attitudes to unmarried mothers. I heard some heart rending stories there. For example, one girl was raped by a “respectable” neighbour and she had twins. She was also paralysed from birth. Nobody believed her story but the nuns did.
I think things were somewhat differrent with the men religious such as the Christian Brothers. There again I have personal experience. A great aunt deserted her family. She had 7 children. Her sister took the 4 girls but the boys were sent to the industrial school called Artane. Years later, I met them at a family funeral. They were full of praise for the Brothers and were very thankful for the great trades they were given. They told me that some of the Brothers could get seriously physical with the boys but as a rule, if a boy behaved, he was not beaten. In those days corporal punishment was allowed in school and moreover, every adult seemed to take it upon himself to chastise children who misbehaved in public. Many a thump I got from Mrs. Kennedy for giggling at Mass!
So I’d say that yes, abuse often did occur in institutions and still does. The difference nowadays is that certain persons want to have a Catholic bash and the Church is a soft target. After all, Brother 20-years-dead RIP can hardly defend himself!
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Very good post, semperfidelis. The two things that make me cynical about this issue are (a) that the alleged perpetrators are often deceased and therefore cannot defend themselves and (b) the money thing. Where there is a compensation claim, I am immediately cynical.
And of course, you are right, semperfidelis: what is now termed “abuse” (corporal punishment) was commonplace only a few years ago. Even my saintly self, would you believe, got the belt – for, would you believe it, talking (telling a joke actually – the teacher told me to come out to the front and tell the whole class the joke but instead of laughing, he gave me the belt! My jokes have improved since then – a lot! That “abuse” didn’t quite kill off my sense of humour, but got close!) and not getting my sums right was the second reason for getting the belt. I blame that experience on the fact that I’ve never got any money – I just keep spending ‘cos my arithmetic is so poor…
So, alleged physical “abuse” needs to be seen in that social context . Remember, this all happened before children had “rights”…
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Editor
Can you clarify this for me – is Pat Buckley a bishop? I’ve read his ordination by Thuc was “valid, but illicit”. In any case, the man is bonkers.
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Sorry he was ordained by Michael Cox.
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Yikes Petrus! Tell me more. I actually nursed Michael Cox in an Irish Army hospital in 1984 or thereabouts. He was isolated as he was though off the wall. ONe thing I remember is that he really was not kosher or, if you like, educated as priests usually (used to be) are. Tell me more…please!
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Semperfidelis
I know nothing about either man. I did see Michael Cox attempt an Exorcism on Dail Eireann in Dublin but apart from that I know nothing. Sorry.
I simply read the articles and then found a link saying that Pat Buckley’s ordination was “valid, but illicit”. Someone who has a better understanding of the situation (hint hint, Athanasius) will be better placed to elaborate further.
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Pat Buckley is a hellish man, a homosexual priest who permitted an excommunicated bishop (Michael Cox) to consecrate him bishop. He is likewise excommunicated. Note the homosexual life of this fallen priest, he blesses gay unions and has not ruled out a partner for himself if such is his “destiny.” Trust the media to seek this unscrupulous man out.
As for these claims of child sexual abuse against deceased priests and religious, I have nothing but contempt for all who accuse the dead long after the event, especially when compensation is clearly a motive. It is utterly appalling that people would be tempted with money from the State to come forward with these horrendous claims. The only sincere victims (and the only ones to be trusted) are those who come forward relatively quickly for justice and not money’ sake.
My own personal opinion is that a large percentage of claims of sexual abuse against priests and religious are bogus. There are, however, a good number of valid claims (in America in particular), signs of a Church in crisis with no little infiltration into its seminaries.
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Athanasius
Yes – horrendous. So is his ordination as bishop invalid?
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No Petrus, it is illicit but, sadly, valid. Cox was consecrated bishop By Archbishop Thuc, who was a validly consecrated Archbishop of the Church. So Cox was a valid, but illicit, bishop who consecrated Buckley validly but illicitly. The power of orders in the Church is not affected by the unworthiness of the one who administers. They are truly excommunicated for their actions, though.
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Thanks, Ath.
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Ath
I thought I read that Thuc was a sedevacantist – ? And I’ve heard of the “Thuc line,” I think in connection with Cardinal Siri and all the claims that it was Siri who was really elected Pope in 1958.
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Torkay
The story that Siri was elected Pope in 1958 is actually a myth, he was never elected.
As regards Thuc, the last years of his life remain a mystery. He simply vanished off the face of the earth. His followers claim that he was abducted and imprisoned in a monastery, but the more likely case is that he repented his errors and retired into obscurity in accordance with a Vatican requirement.
In his life, he had been excommunicated for sedevacantism and for illicitly consecrating bishops. He repented of these errors, had the excommunication lifted and then later returned to the same errors again. It’s very difficult to figure him out. My feeling is that he did repent and died in communion with the Pope, but he left a trail of devastation behind him. It is said that the “Thuc line” has created more than 100 valid, but ilicit, bishops. This is another sign of the tragedy that has come to the Church through the post-Vatican II revolution.
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After reading the original Kathy’s Story, I have wanted to read Kathy’s Real Story for a long time. I really think I should get round to it.
Few countries have been hit as hard by this crisis as Ireland, turning this once proud bastion of the Faith into a godless materialistic cesspool. Of course, the destruction of the liturgy and catechesis is primarily responsible, as are GENUINE cases of abuse by priests and religious. However, I can’t help but get the feeling that the evils perpetrated by members of the Irish Church back in the day have been greatly exaggerated.
I never used to feel this way. When all you hear from your family (as well as a lapsed Catholic English teacher of Irish stock) is how bad those horrible priests and nuns were, you end up believing it. Books like Angela’s Ashes and films like The Magdalene Sisters do nothing to dispel these notions. Indeed, a pretty profitable industry has been built upon books and other media which depict anyone and everyone in a cassock or habit as a depraved child-torturing sadist. For a long time, I thought that Catholicism was the true Faith but that old Catholic Ireland was literally Hell on Earth, and that it was probably a good thing that the Irish had secularised. Not any more.
Of course, abuses did occur and many people did indeed have very negative experiences of their Irish Catholic upbringing. You could write a book on the causes of this phenomenon, but I think that ultimately a lot of it has its roots in the oppression of Catholicism by the English/British. When Mass was banned and the seminaries were closed, any potential priests had to train in the nearest Catholic country, France, which at that time was quite badly infected with the Jansenist heresy. The new Irish priests brought their Jansenist-tinged Catholicism (which emphasises God’s wrath and man’s unworthiness and de-emphasises His love and mercy) back with them and passed it on. From what I’ve heard, many of the Christian Brothers seemed to be particularly badly affected by this. In addition, after the Catholic Emancipation, the Faith could once more flourish in the open and from this there developed in places a culture in which families were EXPECTED to have a vocation or two. When you consider how many people went off to the seminary or convent against their will, it’s no wonder that problems arose.
Despite these problems, I’m sure that many of these stories about the Big Bad Church are either exaggerated or simply made up. There is (or was) a group in Ireland called LOVE (Let Our Voices Emerge) made up primarily of people who had lived in Catholic children’s homes and Magdalene Laundries and had only positive things to say about them. They also acted to defend priests and religious who had been falsely accused. Unfortunately their website is now down, but this seemed to be a VERY common occurance. I had a lecturer at uni whose experiences seemed to reflect those in semperfidelis’ excellent first post. They were strict but fair, and totally dedicated to looking after the children and giving them a good education. I also agree with editor insofar as in our idiotic modern culture, a clip round the ear is often termed abuse, whether it comes from a policeman, local shop owner, priest or even a parent.
Like others have said, it is easy to point the finger at someone who has been dead 20 years or more, particularly if there’s a buck or two in it. Recently, there have been at least two high-profile cases of sickening ritualistic abuse in secular British institutions (the Jersey childrens’ home and the residential school in Ayrshire) but unlike those oh-so-terrible priests and nuns, you won’t see any multi-million dollar films made about them any time soon.
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introibo
That was a very informative and well-balanced post which really says all that needs saying.
There is no question that any sniff of scandal involving the Catholic Church is very quickly seized upon and sensationalised by the modern, secular media. Truth doesn’t really enter into the equation for the people who run these scandal outlets, less yet, I fear, for many who make the accusations.
In the same way that Our Lord was betrayed by Judas and falsely accused by the Sanhedrin, there will always exist those who belong to the Body of Christ, priests, religious and laity, who will betray Him, either by abusing their positions of trust or by lying about those who held such positions, and there will always be a hostile media ready to hold that Mystical Body up to ridicule before the masses.
In times like these Catholics can only console themselves with Our Lord’s words: “If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also.” The Catholic Church is in this world, but it is not of this world. Consequently, since the world hates that which is divine, this Church alone will remain the primary traget for religious persecution always and everywhere.
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semperfidelis,
You wrote about the priesthood (as well as Scouts, teaching etc) being a good disguise for people who want to target children. I think there’s a good deal of truth in this.
In terms of sexual abuse within the priesthood, the majority of victims have been pubescent boys, i.e. most of the abuse is homosexual in nature (NOT that all homosexuals are abusers of children, but in terms of priestly abuse this seems to be the case). I think these abusers either (a) entered the priesthood hiding their sexuality with the full intention to abuse, knowing that their “respectable” position within the community would protect them from any suspicion, or (b) were admitted into seminaries by unscrupulous liberals who knew fine well they didn’t meet the Church’s traditional criteria for such a vocation.
You’re right about other careers too, such as the people I mentioned in the childrens’ home/special school above. As a teacher (and particuarly as a male teacher) I have to be extremely careful to avoid any situations which could result in accusations, especially given the current climate. However, there was a teacher at my high school whom everyone was always suspicious of, and all the girls in my year hated being in his class as he acted so inappropriately. Recently, he disappeared suddenly from the school (he’s only in his fifties) after it emerged that he had taken inappropriate photographs of teenage girls. The shocking thing is that rather than being in jail, he was given early retirement so the school kept its good name! I don’t know if we should feel happy or disappointed that cover-ups aren’t exclusive to the modern Catholic hierarchy.
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Sorry to be pedantic about this and I’m braced for a whack with the rolling pin.
Editor, in the interest of accuracy, don’t you think that stating Buckley has a “Non-episcopal status” is factually incorrect? The man is a moron, and of all people to ask for an opinion the Telegraph made a spectacular blunder, but he is a valid bishop, albeit illicit.
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Petrus, I think I made it clear that he was not a member of the Irish Bishops’ Conference so has absolutely NO status,or to be absolutely accurate, no right to speak as a bishop. I think I am right in saying that most people reading the Telegraph report would presume there was a Bishop Pat Buckley as one of the members of the Irish Bishops’ Conference – I doubt very many people would think anything else.
All the same, I sometimes think I ought to find out who is the saint in charge of senses of humour/satire and pray to him/her to have mine removed, at least when I’m writing…
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Editor
I agree that the article in the Telegraph was misleading. However I still think your entry was misleading too. You put inverted commas around bishop and then said ‘non-episcopal status’. This gives the impression that he is not a valid bishop when he is. It would have been more accurate to use the phrase ‘illicit bishop with no episcopal authority’.
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Oh and I meant to say, you are the Queen of Satire, dearest Editor. It could be that I am on some sort of spectrum and just don’t get it!
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I stand corrected, Petrus.
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Editor, there is something very fishy about this whole tempest, as in, three-day-old fish. Is this Commission attempting to verify the claims of each case, or is it an automatic mea culpa?
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Torkay, I think one priest interviewed said they would look at the evidence before going to compensation – pity Galileo couldn’t claim compensation – the Pope (JPII) might have thought twice before plunging into that daft apology.
I’m up there with Mark Twain? Really? WOW! Torkay, remind me never to consign you to the doghouse again!
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Just thought I would let everyone know that I’ve been on the road all day, so that’s my excuse for not posting comments. Anyway, I’m back now and ready for my tea. Will post later. Caio!
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The media and some victims are presenting priests, nuns, and religious brothers as monsters. At the moment am just listening to a radio piece where a woman is complaining about the food they got each day in these “concentration camps”
I think a Pope like St. Pius V would have some of these wicked priests, brothers and nuns burned at the stake or placed in a dungeon somewhere.
I’m reading through the report.
It must be said that priests,brothers and religious sisters have given so much to education, care of young people over the generations.
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“There is no question that any sniff of scandal involving the Catholic Church is very quickly seized upon and sensationalised by the modern, secular media. Truth doesn’t really enter into the equation for the people who run these scandal outlets, less yet, I fear, for many who make the accusations.
In the same way that Our Lord was betrayed by Judas and falsely accused by the Sanhedrin, there will always exist those who belong to the Body of Christ, priests, religious and laity, who will betray Him, either by abusing their positions of trust or by lying about those who held such positions, and there will always be a hostile media ready to hold that Mystical Body up to ridicule before the masses.
In times like these Catholics can only console themselves with Our Lord’s words: “If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also.” The Catholic Church is in this world, but it is not of this world. Consequently, since the world hates that which is divine, this Church alone will remain the primary traget for religious persecution always and everywhere”
Athanasius is correct here.
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http://www.independent.ie/national-news/martin-rebukes-bishop-over-child-abuse-gaffe-1747665.html
“THE Archbishop of Dublin last night issued an unprecedented public rebuke to the head of the Catholic Church in England for praising “the courage” of Irish pervert priests in “confronting” their actions.” -
Credo,
Whilst recent Popes and Bishops have often done the Church no favours by bending over backwards to apologise for things that don’t need apologised for (Galileo, the Inquisition etc.) in this case Archbishop Martin is definitely right to rebuke Archbishop Nichols for his stupid and insenstive remarks.
Granted, it must be extraordinarily difficult for someone to shame themselves in public by letting everyone know about their heinous crimes which they have hidden for years, but still this is far from “courage”. These perverts are only publicly displaying shame because they got caught. ++ Martin is right – the brave ones are the victims of these monsters.
Please don’t think I’m backtracking on anything I’ve said about the scale of abuse being exaggerated, the anti-Catholic media, clips round the ear being blown out of proportion etc. I still stand by all of that, but in genuine cases of abuse, the victims are indeed the heroic ones and the perverts who abused should not be praised by the likes of ++ Nichols simply for feigning repentance after being caught.
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Credo,
I’ve heard (and perhaps you can confirm this) that the Irish economic boom of the 1990s largely came about because large American and Far-Eastern companies noticed that Ireland had large numbers of articulate, well-educated, adaptable workers, making it an ideal place for them to set up big financial, IT and communications companies. This young workforce (who were most likely far better educated at that time than the majority of British youths) had of course been primarily educated in Catholic institutions, many of them run by religious orders. All you seem to hear from over the Irish Sea is how fantastic the new secular Ireland is, the irony of course being that without Catholic Ireland, the 1990s economic miracle probably would never have taken place.
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This subject was being discussed over at Fish Eaters, and one Irish poster made another interesting observation about how the “bad side” of Irish Catholicism came about.
As well as the Jansenist-influenced priests and forced vocations, problems also seemed to have arisen when Ireland developed a new Catholic middle-class in the 19th century. Prior to this, the middle-class had been almost exclusively British Protestant. The new Catholic middle class therefore adopted much of the etiquette, decorum and attitudes of Victorian England, including extreme standards of modesty (e.g. a woman wearing a dress which showed her ankles was viewed as almost tantamount to prostitution). These Puritan Victorian ideals, when mixed in with healthy doses of Jansenism and false vocations was bound to produce problems, and it did. In confronting these issues however, we must take care never to forget the countless forgotten good and holy priests, nuns and brothers who did so much good for the Irish nation and its people.
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http://www.childabusecommission.com/rpt/pdfs/CICA-VOL3-08.pdf
Work
The Committee heard evidence from 337 female witnesses of being involved in work and
physical labour during their time as residents in the Schools. Work was described as graded
according to age and it was reported that residents from some Schools were expected to work
from the age of seven years. A small number of witnesses reported that they started working at
five years of age.Most witnesses spoke about the lack of staff available to do domestic work
and of the priority given to the completion of allocated work to the exclusion of education or
play, as one witness said: ‘We cared for them, they did not care for us’. The work described by
witnesses included domestic tasks in the Schools, kitchens, convents, local presbyteries, the
homes of local families, and on adjoining farmyards. Work of a commercial nature including
laundry, Rosary bead and rug making, embroidery, and knitting were also described.Many
witnesses reported that residents received no payment for this work.
Work in some Schools was described as beginning before breakfast and continuing until class
commenced, to be resumed after school. General cleaning chores such as sweeping, scrubbing
and polishing were reported as work tasks by 337 witnesses. Residents were responsible for
their own bed making and dormitory cleaning, in addition to cleaning and polishing corridors,
staircases, chapels, classrooms and associated convents, and other buildings.Witnesses
reported being made to clean or polish the same area a number of times until the desired
standard was reached. Witnesses reported that in nine Schools the residents were also required
to clean or work in the kitchen of an affiliated boarding school, hospital or nursing home.One hundred and forty seven (147) witnesses reported working in laundries both for the
institutions and convents, and on a commercial basis for external institutions including hospitals,
hotels, boarding schools and people from the local town. Many gave accounts of receiving no
payment for the work. Witnesses reported having to wash, starch and iron nuns’ habits, clerical
vestments and altar linen, sheets, shirts and table linen. The work in the washrooms and
laundries was described as laborious, without the aid of washing machines or other equipment
in the period prior to the 1960s. Witnesses recalled standing on boxes as small children to reach
into laundry troughs and washing nun’s sanitary cloths in cold water with bare hands.
It was the practice in most of the girls Industrial Schools to accept admissions of female infants,
and a number of Schools also admitted male infants. The work of providing care for these
children was reported to be mainly undertaken by the residents. The ongoing care of babies and
very young children, including siblings, was reported by 123 witnesses. This work included
feeding, dressing, washing and toileting the children who were often referred to by witnesses as
their ‘charges’.Witnesses reported that in a number of Schools they shared their beds with their
young ‘charges’. Other witnesses were required to get up at night to feed babies who slept in
cots beside their beds. Many witnesses described the overwhelming nature of the childcare
task, including eight witnesses who described having to assist toddlers with rectal prolapse.I distinctly remember the babies would be on potties for a long time and sometimes the
older children would lift them up and with a cloth push this thing …(rectal prolapse)…. I
didn’t know what was going on at the time.
Witnesses reported that there was little or no adult supervision as they performed their childcare
tasks. A number of witnesses described the difficulty they experienced caring for young children
without the benefit of being well cared for themselves. As a consequence some witnesses
acknowledged that at times they treated their young ‘charges’ harshly. A small number of
122 CICA Report Vol. III Confidential Committee
8.12
8.13
8.14
8.15
8.16
8.17
8.18
witnesses stated that they were so hungry that they helped themselves to food provided for the
babies, replacing milk with water in the babies’ bottles.
Most Schools and convents had residents assigned to answer the doorbell and do other jobs
similar to those of a parlour maid.Twenty four (24) witnesses reported being sent as
housekeepers to local clergy and families, 13 witnesses reported receiving payment for this
work and others reported that they believed payment went directly to the religious congregation.
Kitchen duties and work in the attached bakeries were reported by 121 witnesses.Descriptions
of this work in 14 Schools included: washing dishes and pots, scrubbing floors, foraging for
firewood, lighting and stoking fires, lifting large pots of boiling water and peeling large quantities
of potatoes and other vegetables. Many of the witnesses reported that this work provided
access to extra food and warmth, it also involved long hours and was arduous. Work in staff
kitchens was seen as particularly advantageous as there was access to better quality food.
Some Schools had both commercial and domestic bakeries where residents worked, and in
some instances continued on a full-time basis on completion of their education.
Commercial contract work was described as a significant activity in four Schools by 84
witnesses and included piece work in the form of making Rosary beads, scapulars and other
religious items. In one School it was reported that young residents made novenas for which it
was believed financial donations were received by the School.The majority of witnesses stated
that no payment was received for this work.
Working in the farmyard, fields, gardens and on the bogs were described as routine activities in
both urban and rural Schools. While it was reported that the female religious congregations
generally employed lay male ancillary staff to work on their farms, 97 witnesses reported being
involved in farm work including haymaking, saving turf, churning butter, sowing and picking
potatoes, milking cows and feeding animals. Weeding gravel driveways, convent graveyards
and plucking the convent lawns by hand were other outdoor tasks reported by witnesses from
several Schools.
Witnesses reported what they regarded as unsafe practices related to cleaning and fire lighting
in five different Schools. In two Schools residents had to clean high external windows with one
resident holding the ankles of another resident who was cleaning the windows. Five (5) Schools
were reported as having residents light fires and furnaces in the early hours of the morning for
the School heating, laundry and cooking systems. Carrying turf and coal and keeping the
furnaces fired was part of the work described by witnesses.
Thirty two (32) witnesses described a distinction being made in the work allocated to residents
who had families and those regarded as ‘orphans’ who described themselves as at times
allocated particularly unpleasant tasks such as clearing drains and unblocking and cleaning
toilets. Other witnesses said they observed ‘orphans’ frequently undertaking demeaning tasks.
Sewing, knitting and decorative needlework were regular semi-recreational activities; several
witnesses reported making clerical vestments, as well as socks, jumpers, dresses and school
uniforms for co-residents. Specialised needlework and knitting was also undertaken for what
witnesses understood was the commercial market and a number of witnesses reported being
regularly occupied knitting Aran sweaters, making rugs, embroidering tablecloths, vestments and
other cloths for shops and church use.They used to have these huge tablecloths and I used to have to do embroidery on it
and do the designs, I used do the crochet. I used do the vestments, the nuns used give
them as gifts to the priests. I used to have to do all the sewing for the girls plus all the
knitting during the school’s holidays. Remember I was 14 years old at the time.”There is nothing abusive about this and all very much of the formation of a Catholic character. I spent most of my holidays and weekends on a relatives farm and did many chores without payment. I never expected payment. Yes, people grumble but is hardly neglect or abuse.
I went to a Catholic primary and secondary school and whilst I didn’t get the Traditional Mass and the full faith, I have to admit the priests and a Catholic schooling/education were excellent.
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“we must take care never to forget the countless forgotten good and holy priests, nuns and brothers who did so much good for the Irish nation and its people.”
We never should.
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“All you seem to hear from over the Irish Sea is how fantastic the new secular Ireland is, the irony of course being that without Catholic Ireland, the 1990s economic miracle probably would never have taken place.”
I am living in Post Christian Ireland if the secular media are to be believed.
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Credo
I find much of what this report says to smack of exaggeration. Also, it does not specify that some of these religious institutions were, in fact, reformatories which housed a good number of children from disturbed and/or broken homes. These obviously have a tendency to rebel against the bad experiences they endured in their early lives as a result of bad parenting.
That so many Catholic religious institutions could have abused so many children in such a manner as reported is just ludicrous. No doubt there were some cases of it, but not on this scale. It’s completely fabricated.
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I would agree.
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I wonder will it be long now before the Childrens Rights referendum in Ireland? The government have been hesitant as they know it would be probably defeated.
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Credo
There may well be a plan afoot to bring the Church in Ireland into moral disrepute so that certain forces can re-introduce the abortion and euthanasia Bills. Remember, it wasn’t that long ago that the Irish drove out that character who was trying to lobby for euthanasia. I think some organisation is manufacturing moral scandals in order to discredit the Church and undermine its moral authority with the faithful. Call me paranoid, but there it is!
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I hope to God that the enemies of the faith never see the comments above belittling and denying the horrific abuse that happened, not just in Ireland, but here as well. Nazareth House has a past to live down!
Many good and decent religious and priests lives with these horrors and were constrained by loyalty and obedience to speak out about it.
As catholics we were trained to be silent ‘to avoid scandalising the people.’ Well they are properly scandalised now, and only the tip of the truth has been exposed.Don’t give yourselves a showing up by blaming the victims! You’re beginning to sound like the Holocaust deniers!
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Lambertini
The Holocaust victims were not offered compensation for making their accusations. Also, the Holocaust victims more or less told immediately of the horrors they suffered under Nazism, and there is ample video footage of it. Not so with many of these so-called abuse victims, whose claims are usually made 30 – 40 years after the said events against deceased people who are obviously no longer in a position to defend their reputations.
We don’t deny that abuse has happened, Lambertini, but, come on, wakey wakey, you don’t believe everything people say, do you?
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Exactly my thought as I read Lambertini’s post, Athanasius. There are people in this land who really do believe everything they read in a newspaper or hear in a TV news broadcast. Completely uncritical minds.
Earth to Lambertini, earth to Lambertini…
Have you READ ‘Kathy’s Real Story’?
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Yes editor, Lambertini’s naivety and obvious lack of knowledge of Church teaching adds a whole new dimension to the meaning of the word ‘Sheep.’
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I just wish these “sheep” wouldn’t keep straying onto this blog – it’s wearing!
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But it must be darn cold for them when they leave – sheered of all that modernist wooliness !!!
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What are we like tonight – Morecambe & Wise or Mutt & Jeff? (Rhetorical question – don’t anybody DARE answer it!)
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I don’t mind being called any of those names, as long as Mutt isn’t prefixed with ‘old.’
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What a self-indulgent exchange!
Let’s get to the nitty-gritty. These accounts of abuse attract your derision because they mostly happened in the halcyon days pre-, guess what,- the Second Vatican Council.
Can these horrors never have happened because the church was perfect in every way at that time? Get real, it was institurional abuse, condoned by hundreds of ‘good’ people who remained, to their eternal shame, silent.
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Lambertini
I think you’ll find the majority of abuse cases stretch back only over the forty odd years since Vatican II. If they are all, as you insist, true, then what does that tell you? And I’m sorry but I have a little difficulty with all these sudden revelations in this compensation era. You believe what you like, my friend.
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Lambertini,
The last thing anyone on here would claim is that everything in the days before Vatican II were perfect, whether they were around then or not. The seeds of the current crisis were indeed sown before the Council, and there were many factors in place then which contributed to the sudden and catastrophic decline of Catholicism in the West. Things weren’t perfect, in Ireland or elsewhere.
And as for abuse and perversion, yes there have always been evil people within the Church. Look at the lives of St. Francis of Assisi and Martin Luther. Both of these men saw gross immorality and hypocrisy in the Church in their respective lives. As we now know, St. Francis handled the situation in the right way whilst Luther didn’t. But the point is that very few, if any, of us bloggers are so naive as to think the Church in the 1940s or ’50s was perfect.
A lot of the GENUINE cases of abuse which took place in Ireland (I share the view that many of them will be false allegations) of course happened back in the days when everyone went to the TLM and got absolution in Latin. I’ve tried to provide some insight as to how this culture arose (and I may be wrong of course) but essentially you’re right – they did happen prior to Vatican II.
The traditional Catholic movement isn’t about trying to return to the way things were in 1950. It’s about living the Faith in 2009 in its entirity, unaffected by modernism and heresy. If anything, traditional Catholics try to learn from the mistakes that were made in those “perfect” days BEFORE the Council.
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introibo
I agree with much of what you say in your comments above, but I would have to take issue with your claim that genuine cases of abuse happened mostly at the time when everyone went to the TLM and received absolution in Latin.
I am not aware of many, if any, cases that stretch back to the period before 1969. There may be some (I don’t doubt that), but they are isolated cases. All the cases I know about are reported to have happened in the past forty years.
As regards 1950s Catholicism, I would be very happy to see the Church return to the faith of this period. Huge numbers of converts came to the faith in the 1950s. The Church was powerful and respected throughout the world and Pope Pius XII was an unflinching Pontiff who proclaimed the dogma of Our Lady’s assumption into heaven and inspired great Fatima gatherings and devotions all over the world. Our seminaries and religious houses were bursting at the seems with vocations, our bishops were strong Catholic leaders and our churches were places of beauty, reverence and holiness. Yes please, can we have the faith of the fifties back!
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Athanasius
Absolutely. Give us the fifties.
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I’d be very happy to see the world returning to the 50s. The modern world is so plunged into error and is rotten to the core. Give me the 50s anyday.
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No doubt you will have heard news about Colm O’Gorman and his ‘revelations’ about a paedophile priest in Ireland. I note that he is living with ‘Paul’
(Daily Telegraph article today) and they have charge of two children. One
therefore questions his credentials and it appears as an exercise in
anti-Catholic muck-raking. Not that this will worry the media or those who
like the publishers of ‘The Magdalen Girls’, hope for mega-bucks or
mega-Euros for their efforts. They are like vultures circling above the body of Catholic Ireland, hoping for a ‘feeding frenzy’, forgetting their own mortality and ‘end’. -
Iain Colquhoun
I agree with you that the media only seems to be interested in sensationalising paedophile cases that involve Catholic clergy. There are many other cases of this abomination outside the Church which they do not focus on. It’s typical of Satan’s use of secularism to try undermining the true religion.
Ireland recently stood up against that man who attempted to bring euthanasia to the country. It has also stood fairly firm against abortion. The enemies of God are now fixating on these latest sex accusations against now-deceased priests and religious from forty years ago in an effort to undermine the moral stance of the Church in the eyes of Catholics. The next time they try to introduce euthanasia and abortion in Ireland, they’ll be hoping to have done enough damage to the Church to get their wicked way.
I truly believe this is what it’s all about and as long as money is being offered to “victims of abuse” I will always believe this to be the case. Offer them justice if they’ve been abused, not money, then we can’t say there was an alternative motive for people coming forward with accusations after forty years.
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Welcome back, Iain Colquhoun – I know you’ve had bother getting on the right side of your login, but you’ve won through in the end – congratulations!
I am very interested indeed in your revelations about Colm O’Gorman – I saw a tape of The Big Questions on Sunday on BBC 1 and he was waxing lyrical about the abuse he suffered at the hands of clergy. When a priest in the audience drew attention to the fact that homosexuals were the problem, not priests per se, O’Gorman (and the audience/panel in general) went nuts. Now I know why HE reacted so badly – he’s one himself!
So, thanks for that info, Iain Colquhoun – and keep blogging! That way you won’t forget your password!
Remember, you can change your password by going into Profile in your admin page, scrolling down to where it invites you to change your password, put in whatever you wish, and then scroll down to click on “update details” and that will be your new password until you change it again.
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I am hopeful this is the appropriate place to comment on the CT ‘Lead Story’ today about the Cardiff priest Fr John Owen upsetting homosexuals by stating that sexual abuse in Catholic institutions for men is homosexual in origin. What I would like to do is upset homosexuals so much with an expose of their activities that their ‘gaiety’ would disappear. I mean – we are now in such an impasse that no-one can state the obvious. I can encourage bloggers to buy Stephen Green’s book ‘The Sexual Dead-End’ (Christian Voice publications) an expose of the homosexual network which publishes the facts about homosexual groups links with paedophilia. It remains the best expose of homosexuality in the UK and its practices, some of which should not be read about on a delicate stomach..
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Thanks for that information, Iain Colquhoun. I didn’t see the programme but it was terrible how Fr Owens was treated. I think that books sounds really useful. Thanks for that tip.
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The abuse scandal in Ireland has a lot of parallels with the MP expenses scandal in Westminster. In both cases, the guilty parties were not accountable in any way to anyone, and abused this absolute power.
De Valera gave the Church in Ireland too much power. The Church was answerable to no-one, and so those in authority in Ireland could behave as they wished, and they did.
To say that there was no abuse, or less abuse, before the Vatican Council, or to say that the victims are exaggerating their claims is preposterous in the extreme. The reason they did not come forward before is because of the climate prevalent in Ireland at the time, with the attitude that the Church could not be questioned in anything.
The abuse happened. It is a scandal, and one the Church in Ireland, and the priests responsible, should be ashamed of. It has nothing to do with Vatican II, the Latin Mass or anything else. It is human nature at its sinful worst.
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Cathedralman
The evidence is so conclusive – I don’t think! The majority of ‘victims’ only came forward once the alledged ‘abusers’ were dead and could no longer defend themselves. Indeed, one such ‘victim’ has been exosed as a liar in the book mentioned above.
Listen, abuse is always a scandal and totally monsterous. No doubt there have been genuine cases of abuse in Ireland or elsewhere. However, it is by no means unique to the Church or to Ireland. It’s just that the liberal press like nothing better than to have a go at the big, bad Catholic Church.
I’m sorry but I am always suspicious when these ‘victims’ start talking about compensation. Their ordeal was so horrific but they never tire of newspaper interviews and book writing. It’s all slightly sinister. The press will always pay for a bit of Roman Scandal and there are plenty gold diggers willing to let their imaginations run wild.
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Petrus, well said.
At the top of this thread, semperfidelis recounts her first hand experience of working in the Magdalene Laundries. There is no question but that some of these abuse stories are concocted. And I absolutely do NOT believe anyone who is seeking compensation. Absolutely not. If they genuinely only want to rectify an injustice and make sure this doesn’t happen in future, they will want to be squeaky clean and seen to be so. The only way to achieve that is to eliminate any possible whiff of ulterior motives.
I recall the allegations against one of the Sisters of Nazareth in Aberdeen a few years ago, of physical abuse towards children in their orphanage. One of the solicitors who was in court throughout told me that the media version was skewed to put Sister in the worst possible light. Turned out that the lady who was behind the whole court case, had, previously, visited the convent to make sure that Sister was still teaching there because she wanted her own daughter to be under her care, so highly did she regard her. As the Bishop (Conti) pointed out at the time, in those days, corporal punishment was the norm in schools and orphanages and any such punishments were no worse than that meted out in all schools – not just Catholic institutions.
So, Petrus, you are right to be sceptical. We all condemn abuse of children, but it is wrong to assume that every allegation is genuine. I don’t think that for a minute.
The pity is that Joe Bloggs (i.e. Cathedralman) tends to believe everthing he reads in the papers – that’s “conclusive” enough evidence for him. We are a bit more discerning on this blog, Cathedralman!
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What evidence do you have, editor, that I believe everything I read in the papers? You seem to major in offence, as witnessed by many previous posts.
The evidence, Petrus and editor, is that abuse in the Church in Ireland was endemic. You can believe it or not; that is your prerogative, but flying in the face of the evidence that has emerged is unjust to the victims and does not do the Church any favours.
Sometimes the truth is hard to face, but it is better in the long term to do so. Espousing conspiracy theories and accusing people of naivety, as the editor does of me, does no-one any good.
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So what are your sources of evidence, Cathedralman?
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Cathedralman you seem to be a very angry person. Nobody has said that there has not been abuse but it is one thing to accept cases of abuse where the alleged person responsible is still alive and able to defend himself and another if the person is dead and there is only one side of the case being heard. Also, if that one side of the case being heard includes a claim for money-compensation, I think we are entitled to be sceptical.
Editor will answer for herself but I think she was just making the point that there are lots of people who won’t think of these things and will just presume that because these cases appear in the papers, they must be true. If someobody reacts angrily just because some of us are sceptical about certain cases, then that doesn’t suggest that they are being fair minded and maybe deceased people will have their reputations in tatters when they haven’t been guilty at all.
I don’t believe that the abuse in the Church in Ireland was endemic. There are tons of stories of holy priests and nuns who helped lots of young people but we are not hearing those stories because the Irish press is well known to be anti-Catholic.
I agree with Petrus’s question – what are you sources of evidence?
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Excellent post, Jacinta.
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Credo, I’ve now had time to read through the list of so-called abuses from you post of May 22nd, lengthy list. I agree with Athanasius that a lot of it smacks of exaggeration and that they forget these children are from broken or disturbed homes etc.
I also agree with those who say the media in Ireland are out to get the Church – no question about it.
I’ve heard lovely stories from friends and relatives about good experiences of the Church in Ireland in the years before Vatican II. There may have been some cases of abuse but, as others have said, nothing on this scale. I believe it is being blown out of all proportion to make the Church look bad and in the end to get people to turn their backs on the Church completely. I hope the Irish have more sense than to be fooled like that.
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The letter below, is published in this week’s Catholic Herald. I also had a telephone call from an Irish friend today who told me of several cases she knew personally, where people claimed to have been abused in order to get compensation. Anyway, this is an interesting alternative view…
5 June 2009
There is another side to the story of schools run by religious orders in Ireland
Name and address supplied
SIR – I was in an orphanage in Belfast run by nuns in the early 1960s and would like to make a few observations as someone who is surely qualified more than many to do so.
It upsets me to see so much negative rhetoric accepted without question about so-called cruel, heartless, Catholic clergy and nuns (Report, May 31). While some people surely have genuinely suffered and this is a dreadful crime, I suspect financial “compensation” has encouraged others to apportion blame and resentments on people who are not really the cause of their deep-seated anger, sadness and disappointments in early or later life. When money was put on the table the accusations rocketed. That is surely an aspect of the story which no media are covering.
I would ask this question: where would I and the hundreds who were my peers have been without those nuns? I remember very clearly that we were so many and the nuns were few and, yes, certainly harassed. It was 24/7 for them with no holidays. In those days abortion was generally still, thank God, rightfully a crime, so “the saved”, “mistakes”, along with the kids from broken homes, depended on the religious orders for survival.
How many thousands of good citizens have “my” nuns and the other orders been responsible for sheltering, feeding, washing, educating and caring for when others couldn’t – or wouldn’t? Why are they all being so mercilessly condemned for the actions of “some”? Why is the description “endemic abuse” being promoted so freely and without question? Many of the accused generation are now incapable of defending themselves and the Church, after a series of scandals, seems to prefer not to even attempt to defend the good name of most of its apostles of that time, which is so very sad and unfair.
I was never once beaten, mistreated, molested or manhandled in the six years I was in the care of the nuns. However, when I eventually found myself in a non-religious state school I was strapped, humiliated and thumped on many occasions. How much will the government offer me for that “abuse”?
In my experience I can say that the nuns did their best at all times in very difficult circumstances and I will always be grateful to them for giving me a chance to survive. I hope that more people like me will write to tell the other side of the story, because there is another side.
Yours faithfully,
Name and address supplied
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