Washington D.C., Aug 21, 2009 / 11:14 am (CNA).- After years in the making, the English translation of the new Roman Missal is nearing its completion and is now awaiting the final approval of the bishops and the Vatican. In an effort to begin educating the faithful and clergy on the new translation, the U.S. bishops have launched a website
http://www.catholicnews
agency.com/new.
php?n=16905
Click on ‘comments’ to tell us if the novus ordo can EVER be fixed. I don’t think so…
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It is a fact that the New Mass was imposed on the Catholic world in order to fulfill the needs of ecumenism. Anibale Bugnini, the architect of the Novus Ordo, said so himself. Bugnini stated publicly that his aim in designing the New Mass was “to create a worship service that any Hindu, Buddhist, or Protestant could attend and feel perfectly at home with.”
No need to launch a web site for a Mass that’s not Catholic.
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…and the “needs of ecumenism” were dictated by the false teachings of Freemasonry, so lifting up the rug under the NO we find homage to a false god, a false idol. It is pagan idolatry with a Catholic consecration stuck in the middle. It is the Church drugged, bound and gagged and thrown in a corner, while her sacred deposit of faith is ransacked and looted by theological and liturgical vandals.
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By the way MCS, information had previously surfaced somewhere on this blog – I don’t remember where, but it was in an article written by the Abbé de Nantes – that the Novus Odor was never actually promulgated by HH Paul VI, his decree being deliberately and subtlely mis-translated. So it would be helpful (to me, at least) to expose by what means this “imposition” took place. Could it be that this “mass” is not only illicit because it was rejected by the Synod of Bishops, but because it illegally suppressed the traditional Mass, i.e. was illegally imposed?
Here’s a stirring letter by said Abbe to HH Benedict XVI, written shortly after the publication of Summorum, succinctly summing up the crisis in the Church:
http://infelixego.blogspot.com/2007/11/letter-from-abb-de-nantes-to-his.html
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I have glanced through the US Bishop’s website looking at the various changes that have been made to the New Mass.
Very interesting! The erroneous words at the consecration of the wine have been altered to reflect more faithfully those of the original Latin text, e.g.,
From:
“TAKE THIS, ALL OF YOU, AND DRINK FROM IT: THIS IS THE CUP OF MY BLOOD, THE BLOOD OF THE NEW AND EVERLASTING COVENANT. IT WILL BE SHED FOR YOU AND FOR ALL SO THAT SINS MAY BE FORGIVEN. DO THIS IN MEMORY OF ME.”
To:
“TAKE THIS, ALL OF YOU, AND DRINK FROM IT: FOR THIS IS THE CHALICE OF MY BLOOD, THE BLOOD OF THE NEW AND ETERNAL COVENANT; WHICH WILL BE POURED OUT FOR YOU AND FOR MANY FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS. DO THIS IN MEMORY OF ME.”
Following down through the various prayers the same rule appears to apply. The traditional vernacular wording found in the 1962 Latin Missal has replaced the ambiguous tripe of the 1970 and 1975 rites. And there are one or two additional uses of the words “sacrifice” and “oblation.”
Despite these welcome changes, however, this newly adjusted Mass retains a good deal of wishy-washy liberal language and obscurity. It is far from a faithful translation of the Tridentine Mass, which, as we know, was absolutely butchered by Mgr. Bugnini and his Protestant accomplices.
And here is the pitiful attempt at justification for this butchery from the USCCB Website:
“January 25, 1969
Comme le Prévoit, Instruction on the translation of liturgical texts for celebrations with a congregation.
The Concilium, to prepare for the promulgation of the new Roman Missal, issued this text which contained guidelines for translators. The guiding principle of the document was “dynamic equivalency,” which means to translate basic thoughts rather than words. Those who use this principle say that they are aiming for a transfer of the same meaning from the original to the receptor language. The original words and form are important only as a vehicle for the meaning; therefore, it is the meaning alone that is truly important in the translation.”
See how clever these Reformers are? They claim that it’s not a faithful translation of words and form that matters, but rather an interpretation of meaning.
And here I am asking myself if it’s just me or does everyone else agree that different words and form convey a different meaning? That’s why they changed the old words and form, because the old words and form were explicitly Catholic and the new words and form are not. Change the words and form and you change the meaning behind them. It is impossible to change the words and form of the old Mass and still convey the same meaning.
So what is my summation of this revised Mass? Well, some parts have reverted back to an almost direct translation from the 1962 Latin wording, while other parts have been altered using modern wording. It’s a bit of a half-breed rite, not sufficiently Catholic to fully express the sacrificial nature of the Mass, and not nearly Catholic enough to halt all the Protestant shenanigans (form) that go on in the average Sanctuary during its celebration. It’s doomed to failure, I fear.
The good news is that it has moved just that little closer in certain areas to the Tridentine rite so that the inevitable switch back will be more easily facilitated.
And why will it switch back? Because the Council Fathers did not call for, nor authorise, a new vernacular rite of Mass. It is from first to last a novelty Mass created by modernsts for the sole purpose of furthering ecumenical relations, a condemned error.
Read this disgraceful misrepresentation of the facts from the USCCB Website:
“Dec. 4, 1963
Second Vatican Council promulgates Sacrosanctum Concilium (Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy).
This text, the first official text of the Council, called for the renewal of the liturgy and the reform of the liturgical books in order to promote the “full, conscious, and active participation” of the faithful in the liturgy of the Church. The fathers of the Council invited consideration of the use of the vernacular (the local language of the people), and in the years leading up to a new Roman Missal, it was determined that the vernacular could be used for the entire liturgy.”
No mention here of the Council Fathers restrictions on usage of the vernacular, nor of the general rule that Latin was to remain the language of the Ordinary of the Mass. So who exactly “determined” that the vernacular could be used for the entire liturgy? Was it Mgr. Bugnini, perhaps? You’ll note that names are not named. This is a classic modernist tactic.
Here are some excerpts from Sacrosanctum Concilium that show what the Council Fathers actually said about liturgical reform:
“23. …there must be no innovations unless the good of the Church genuinely and certainly requires them; and care must be taken that any new forms adopted should in some way grow organically from forms already existing.”
“36. 1. Particular law remaining in force, the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites.”
“54. In Masses which are celebrated with the people, a suitable place may be allotted to their mother tongue. This is to apply in the first place to the readings and “the common prayer,” but also, as local conditions may warrant, to those parts which pertain to the people, according to the norm laid down in Art. 36 of this Constitution.
Nevertheless steps should be taken so that the faithful may also be able to say or to sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them.”“116. The Church acknowledges Gregorian chant as specially suited to the Roman liturgy: therefore, other things being equal, it should be given pride of place in liturgical services.”
Is Pope Benedict XVI somehow attempting, by this latest reform, to bring the Mass closer to what the Council Fathers decreed? I think he is, although these latest changes do little to return the Mass to what it was and should be. Still, it’s obvious that the Pope is seeing that post-Vatican II reform of the liturgy was unfaithful to the Council and to sacred tradition. We must be thankful for that small mercy at least!
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Torkay
Your terms “Novus Odor” made me laugh out LOUD!! I strongly agree with the article by Abbé de Nantes. Very good.
It appears to me that these US Bishops are wasting their time with these never ending liturgy changes. The New Mass can NEVER reach perfection. It was fabricated by man, it is clearly a meal, lacks all four marks of the Church ( half Protestant) and is barren.
Even Max Thurian, one of the six Protestant Taize participants agrees –“With the new liturgy, non-Catholics communities will be able to celebrate the Lord’s Supper with the same prayers as Catholics.”
– “By this our decree, TO BE VALID in perpetuity, we determine and order that never shall anything be added to, omitted from, or changed in this Missal..” –Pope St, Pius V. QUO Primum July 1570
How can any honest person overlook these atrocities?
Athanasius
Thanks for the lengthy quotes from the USCCB web site. I need to look them over.
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“and the “needs of ecumenism” were dictated by the false teachings of Freemasonry, so lifting up the rug under the NO we find homage to a false god, a false idol. It is pagan idolatry with a Catholic consecration stuck in the middle. It is the Church drugged, bound and gagged and thrown in a corner, while her sacred deposit of faith is ransacked and looted by theological and liturgical vandals.”
Torkay
I agree. One of the greatest triumphs of Freemasonry is the Novus Ordo Missae. —
http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/newmass/fmass.htm
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“The “New Religion” for which the Masons strive is their own One World Religion with the worship of man. And the Novus Ordo or New “Mass” – with its complete profanation of the True Mass once offered to Almighty God, humanistic English jargon, presidential chair(s), etc. – is the sacrilegious personification of it all! The “Renew” program now also flooding our churches, is meant among other things to de-sensitize the last vestiges of Catholicism from the parishes, or “People of God” (a Masonic term of the Revolution). No more hell, no more purgatory, do whatever you want – conscience is all! The idea of parish councils running things is also revolutionary to the Catholic Church, for to us the Holy Ghost enlightens and rules from above through the Pope on down – not vice-versa.” — FROM FREEMASONRY AND THE NEW MASS
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Torkay & Miles Christi Sum
I completely agree that the New Mass was a major triumph for Freemasonry, as was the adoption of the great error of ecumenism. There is absolutely no question that the enemies of the Catholic Religion have succeeded in infiltrating the high clergy in the Church and we are now seeing the spiritual devastation caused by these infiltrators in every parish.
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Ath
Thanks for that analysis of these new developments – I need to go through them carefully.
I found this comment on Fr Z’s “combox” relating to his post on this story:
“I am a pre-Vatican-II convert. I remember the abruptness of the changes in the mid-60’s. I remember how many of the faithful walked out, never to return, though this was no credit to them. 40 years later, I find myself impatient for reform of the reform. But Ratzinger is right. The “waiting” is a means of avoiding the same abruptness that caused many to leave in the 60’s. The waiting is tough but also necessary. The gradual approach is much better. I hope I live long enough to see it bear fruit.”
So the Pope’s “brick by brick” approach is to avoid abruptness and more voting with the feet? I never heard that one before.
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Torkay
I’ve never heard of Popes treading carefully when it came to heresy, especially when that heresy threatens the very life of the Church. St. Pius X is the example Pope Benedict XVI should be following. Never mind trying to keep the schismatics calm with slow changes. Make the changes immediately, declare the truth of the matter to those in error and then let them leave the Church if they will. At least then they will be exposed as heretics and schismatics that all should avoid.
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Exactly, Athanasius.
This isn’t a numbers game. If the heretics want to vote with their feet, good riddance!
Saint Pius X, pray for us!
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Can the Nervous Disorder be fixed? Well………no.
It can’t be fixed simply because it ain’t broke. It is what it is; a precisely (and purposefully) formed Protestant memorial service and they’re welcome to it. Personally, I have no use for it.Tomas,
An interesting comment from Fr Z’s site – and fairly typical, I think, of the reform-of-the-reform bunch. As a pre-Vatican II cradle catholic in this country, my perspective is decidedly different. I don’t remember many of the faithful walking out in protest of the (effective) scrapping of the traditional Mass. I doubt that more than a comparative handful, worldwide, did so. Rather, we submitted ourselves unwittingly to the boiling frog syndrome and simply trudged on – at least most of us – in blind, ignorant obedience. Had anyone asked 99.9% of Catholics in, say, 1970 what they thought of the Ottaviani Intervention, they would probably have thought the questioner was referring to an Italian football strategy!
There were plenty of defections in the early days for sure but those were largely impelled by the invidious, heady, “free at last” spirit of VII – and for all the wrong reasons. No, most Catholics of the day just went along acceptingly. A good many, as did yours truly, drifted like somnambulants into a state of apathy and then, eventually, into apostasy.
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Cateran, that more or less matches my perspective on the upheaval – I don’t remember the churches emptying straight away. It was rather a gradual trickling away through the years that followed. At first there was even enthusiasm from the younger members of congregations (of whom there were then many) because the quickly-introduced guitars and bongo drums, etc. chimed in with the rapidly-growing new phenomenon of pop- ‘culture’ which they were embracing. Then, as they grew older and the pop-scene constantly changed, they drifted away in increasing numbers. Those that stayed turned into the NO devotees of today, still remembering with fondness all the experiences of their teenage years.
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I have just caught up with this thread and each and every comment is terrific. Athanasius, I’ve copied your first lengthy post to email to a priest I know, to make sure he doesn’t miss it. He was ordained in and for the new Mass and he just cannot see what we can see – incredible.
But I absolutely agree with whoever it was said (? Athanasius) that this latest tinkering with the new Mass is a move in the right direction and will make the absolutely inevitable return to the traditional Mass that much easier when the time comes (soon, please, Lord!)
As I have said many times, Pope Benedict is not the great reforming pope the Church needs – he is waiting in the wings; but Pope Benedict is, however unwittingly, preparing the way for that restoration.
As for the reference above to the infiltration of Freemasonry at the highest levels in the Church, that came to my mind again today when reflecting on Cardinal Bertone’s promotion of Medjugorje – he is quoted as saying in a letter or article (forget which) that the negative judgement on Medjugorje is just the opinion of the local bishop. I’ve long held the view that Cardinal Bertone is not to be trusted. His involvement in the suppression of the Third Secret of Fatima etc. spells “highly suspect” to me.
I hope you are all impressed that I’ve again crawled out of my sick/deathbed to contribute my gems of wisdom to this blog. Appreciate me, you lot DON’T!
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I’m impressed! Feel better soon, Editor!
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editor
You’ve had a few of these colds and flus recently. You’re not a binge alcoholic by any chance? Only kidding!!! Put that rolling pin away.
No listen y’all, I’m up and away to Elgin on business in the morning (Moday). I have a 5.30am start and a few hundred miles to drive. It’s 1am now, so don’t be expecting too much from my dead brain later in the day!!
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Ath, I don’t know how you manage to function on that kind of schedule. Must be nice to be young. Remember those days, Editor?
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cateran
Interesting observation and great name for the Bugnini Bazaar. I never thought of it as not being broke before, but you’re right. It’s not broke, it’s dead on arrival.
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What an interesting topic! As a 19 year old even my mother is post Vatican 2 so it’s all very historical for me. I was intrigued by a comment cateran made on August 23 at 8.34:
“There were plenty of defections in the early days for sure but those were largely impelled by the invidious, heady, “free at last” spirit of VII – and for all the wrong reasons. No, most Catholics of the day just went along acceptingly. A good many, as did yours truly, drifted like somnambulants into a state of apathy and then, eventually, into apostasy.”
I asked my grandma about that and she confirmed that’s what happened. She said it was years before she realised what was happening and that is why we are all traditional Catholics now. The wake up call, she said, came for her whilst a post grad student in Paris. Things had deteriorated there at a far faster pace than in the UK so the frog jumped out of the water before it was too late! She actually saw a priest in an outside cafe consecrate a baguette and a glass of wine!! She just lapsed and only returned when she came across Archbishop’s Lefebvre’s followers many years later.
I must say that I still cannot understand why everyone went along with it as it must have been obvious that this new liturgy wasn’t “Catholic”. Perhaps the problem was this “papal impeccability” that Athanasius goes on about? Whatever happened it has left a terrible legacy to us young Catholics.
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Yes, Nuala, that was the probolem. Slow learners like myself thought “if the Pope says it, it must be right” and to make it harder to discern the truth, I was in a parish with three very sound priests who preached the Faith in and out of season. When I met one of them in recent years, he said that I must be confusing him with our (strict, now deceased) Parish Priest, then admitted that the curates in those days had to “toe the party line” so he was obviously a modernist keeping his head down. I reported this in the newsletter some years ago.
Torkay, you really are pushing your Donald Duck (luck) making quips about my age again! Are you addicted to rolling pins or what?
Speaking of which, no Athanasius, you cheeky blighter, I’m not a binge drinker of anything except Diet Coke.
Like Torkay, though, I am amazed at your schedule for work – when I think of the lazy so & so’s who make excuses for not blogging, too. No wonder they say “if you want something done, ask a busy person”.
Of course, we all now know that that saying should read “if you want something done, ask a busy person even if he’s a cheeky blighter…”
I’m off to do this and that. When I’ve done “that” I’ll be back…
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Nuala, you said it must have been obvious that this new liturgy wasn’t “Catholic”. The problem is that it wasn’t, then, at all obvious to most of us. Remember that the Catholic opposition to the NO was not mobilised and spread for some considerable time and we had been taught, in our schools and from the pulpit, that we must not, under pain of serious sin, take part in ‘the services and prayers of a false religion’. Hence we didn’t know what a Protestant service looked like, so didn’t realise that the new Mass was modelled on one. Also we had been taught, in the same way, that ‘we must obey our parents and lawful superiors in all that is not sin’. And, as the teaching of our lawful superiors in the persons of priests and bishops had always been obediently followed, we drifted on under the (we now know) fatal imperative of ‘obedience’. Hindsight is indeed a wonderful thing. It’s all too easy now to wonder why we were so blind – you would have to have been there to understand.
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Naomi wrote, “Hence we didn’t know what a Protestant service looked like, so didn’t realise that the new Mass was modelled on one.”
I came from a Protesant background straight into Tradition, never passing through the Novus Ordo. I’ve been asked how I don’t know that I wouldn’t have preferred the new Mass better, to which I replied, “Of course I know: I used to be a Protestant, and I’ve seen where you people are headed.” I don’t get asked that question so much any more.
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I was also a Protestant for 40 years (though born Catholic), but unlike Isaac I passed through the Gates of Ecumenism before I discovered tradition. I found the Novus Ordo at first much more sacred than the typical Protestant “service,” but the first time I went to a traditional Mass I knew instantly that (a) this was the true Catholic Mass, and (b) that the other thing was a heavily Protestantized butchery of it. That was before I read about Vatican II, which confirmed my perceptions.
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I’d been to Episcopal (i.e. American Anglican) and Lutheran services, which are closer to a Catholic Mass than the Methodist, Baptist, Presbyterian, Charismatic, etc. In fact, in some of the more conservative Lutheran chapels one kneels for communion and receives on the tongue.
My first impression of a traditional Catholic Mass was not a sympathetic one: I came away with two chief thoughts (1) I didn’t understand what was going on (which I expected) and (2) my knees hurt from kneeling on concrete for so long. I noticed that all the little old grandmothers weren’t complaining about their knees hurting, though, and I was determined to man up and tough it out rather than admit defeat to the blue haired ladies. It was not the most noble motivaton, but it helped to keep me coming back.
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Isaac
My first time I didn’t really give a thought to understanding what was going on, I just sat there and wept at the beauty and invincible mystery of it. Probably got my Ecclesia Dei booklet all wet too.
It took me almost 4 years after that to make the decisive break with the Novus Ordo, and now, on the rare occasion when I have to attend one, I can’t sit there without my skin crawling and my stomach knotting with anger. It really is a crime against the faith.
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Drive safely, Athanasius!
Just popping in for a moment to say hello to all of my dear friends. Today is the first day of home school, so I will not be able to post until late afternoons, which will be night time for most of you. I didn’t want you all to think that I had abandoned you. I will post more after teaching, but I too may be brain dead.
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A not even half way house back to normality, that is what this is. How many parishes follow the Novus Ordo missal properly. Not even one in a hundred I’d bet. This tinkering will get no where fast I’m afraid.
The only recourse is to bring back the Traditional Mass everywhere.
Poor Athy, 5.30am and all the way to Elgin. Dry your eyes the lot of you. Could do that standing on one leg, with one hand behind my back, the other hand holding a pint of Guinness. Many was the day I done my bit at draining the world beer and whiskey lakes and then was ‘choppered to an oil rig in a drunken coma, before dawn.
Did I ever tell you about the time Letitia had to haul me out of the station on one of those Casey Jones style railway carts much to the amusement of the station porters….no..?? ah well maybe some other day.
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Isaac, it was ridiculous that you had to kneel on concrete. Surely they had pews with kneelers, preferably carpeted or cushioned? Everything possible should be done to facilitate our concentration at Mass so this sort of thing is just not acceptable. You were nothing short of heroic for going back. I would have been looking for another church. Preferably one within easy reach of cream cakes and coffee…
Torkay – “a crime against the Faith” just reminded me I haven’t seen Columbo for ages now…
Miles Christi Sum, thanks for letting us know that you won’t be blogging quite as much as heretofore due to teaching commitments, but thanks for promising not to abandon us. The blog just WOULDN’T be the same without you.
crouchback, I think you may well be right that the latest changes to the new Mass will get nowhere fast. Since they are changes to restore the theology of the tradtional Mass, I doubt very much if they will be implemented. If Scotland’s bishops can get away with totally ignoring Summorum Pontificum, I doubt they will pay the slightest heed to a few “guidelines” from Rome on the new Mass.
Oh and… poor Letitia…
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Hi, I’m back!
crouchback
Will you arrange a riggs helicopter for me the next time I have to go to Elgin? Having broken the land speed record this morning I would very much like to try beating the air one!
Now, our American friends must come over to Scotland at some time and drive that route up the A9 to Inverness. There is some truly breathtaking scenery on that journey. 200 miles interspersed with mountains, beautiful nestling towns and rivers and a few castle ruins just to complete the picture. And the history of the Jacobites to boot, including Culloden. A must see!
I paint the picture from memory since I didn’t go slow enough to notice much today. 200 miles of single, bendy, twisty road in just 2 hours 30 minutes, crouchback. Beat that in your helicopter!!
By the way, crouchy, I took the ‘distillery route,’ which, for our prospective visitors, is the beautiful scenic route that has the added incentive of being able pay a tasty visit to a series of whisky distillery’s. Ah, the water of life!!
I didn’t actually manage to get to bed last night, so on my return from my travels, and a must-keep dental appointment (waste of time), I visited the vet (no, not for myself), had a bite to eat and then decided on a two-hour nap which kind of ran into, well, four hours! And so, despite looking like the ghost of Christmas past, here I am once more, refreshed and ready to do it all again. Yea, right!
I have been catching up on all the comments here and from those of Torkay and Isaac a thought occurred to me, which is that traditional Catholicism today is fairly well manned with converts from Protestantism.
What was it Our Lord said about those who are last being first, and the first last? I see the providence of God in this. While so many cradle Catholics have been throwing that beautiful gift of the traditional Catholic religion to the four winds of modernism, Our Lord has been filling the vacant places with converts. I find this very significant.
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Ath
I was a cradle Catholic, but my cradle was robbed. Perhaps we converts/reverts are the mortal counterparts to all those saints who take the place of the fallen angels in heaven.
Editor
How come you never drove me up the A9 to Iverness on our sightseeing day last year? Just think of all the songs I could have taught you with a Brooklyn accent…
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Crouchy
Where have you been, lad? Which is time more profitably spend: pumping crude on a rig in some salty water, or blogging with us? (Careful now, Editor is watching…)
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By the way Ath, I’m trying to figure out how you got back so fast. Are you sure there’s only one of you?
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Torkay
I’m like Saddam Hussein, Torkay. I have about five lookalikes. Or were you referring to my personality????
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Athanasius, I worry about you. Big time. That is one dangerous road, the A9, so go easy. To think they slap speeding tickets on me for doing 3 miles over a 40 miles limit and you can race up and down the A9 with not a camera in sight. There’s no justice in this world.
Speaking of which, I doubt if our American bloggers will be over here again, Athanasius; our Kenny MacAskill has put paid to that. In the USA they’re talking about boycotting Scottish goods although I’ve yet to check out the Lockerbie thread to see if Torkay or Miles Christ Sum has answered my question about whether or not that means they’ll be bidding this blog farewell…
Torkay, I’m still singing “Louis the Foist…” so just as well we didn’t drive any further than Loch Lomond!
Returning to the topic of this thread, I sent the following email to a priest called Fr John Kelly whose letter in The Tablet really did beggar belief. I hope you will catch the drift of his letter from my response…
MY EMAIL TO FR KELLY ON HIS LETTER TO THE TABLET…
Dear Fr Kelly,
I have just read your letter in The Tablet and hope you don’t mind if I write to ask you a couple of questions. Firstly, I wonder if you would define for me, “a tridentine theology” which you claim is still the “approach” of the new Mass. I have heard this phrase before (“Tridentine theology”) but I never know what, precisely, it means. I would be very grateful for your help in understanding what this mean because, although I attend the traditional Mass myself, having returned to it in recent years, I have friends who attend the novus ordo Mass who are at pains to tell me that the Mass is just the same as it always was. I can’t see it myself, and your reference to a lingering “Tridentine theology” seems to confirm my own personal view that the Mass has, indeed, been changed. For your interest, I include a link to the letter from two eminent Cardinals to Pope Paul VI on the subject of the then proposed new Mass. http://www.fisheaters.com/ottavianiintervention.html
My second question is in relation to your reference to the “drama” of the new Mass and may, in fact, be directly related to my first question. I notice that your list describing this “drama” does not include any mention of the great Sacrifice of Calvary, so I wonder if – in fact – it is this – the idea of the Mass as the re-enactment of Calvary – that you believe to be “tridentine theology”.
I’m genuinely interested in discovering if I am interpreting your letter correctly. I am guessing that you are a young(ish!) priest, trained post-Vatican II and for priests in that category, I do have a great deal of sympathy. It cannot be easy being a priest in the midst of this, the worst crisis of faith and authority ever to afflict the Church. I just made it myself, having been young Catholic during and immediately post-Vatican II. It was hard enough to make sense of all the radical changes. So please do not think that I am trying to “catch you out” – I am genuinely wondering if I am interpreting “tridentine theology” correctly.
All good wishes.
Editor, Catholic Truth… ENDTo date, no reply (surprise, no surprise…)
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editor
A very good letter indeed, but I doubt if Fr. Kelly will know how to answer it. They make these ridiculous statements which, of course, they cannot justify in reality when put to the question. I hope he does answer, but I sincerely doubt it.
As regards my driving. I am a model driver. Well maybe “model” isn’t exactly the word I’m looking for, but I know it begins with the letter ‘m’! Can you help find the missing word? Be careful now!
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Don’t tempt me to find that missing word – not when the initial is “m”!
I, too, doubt if Fr Kelly will reply but l had to write. I detest The Tablet and only read it because one of our readers insists on giving me a copy every week. Half the time it takes up my entire Sunday afternoon replying to theologically illiterate letters.
One has to do one’s duty, however, so I complain not.
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editor
Quite right! Just read the tablet and then take a tablet to relieve the headache from reading so much tripe!
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Or, Athanasius, do you mean: ” Just read the tablet and then take a tablet to relieve the headache from reading The Tablet”…?!!
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Editor
Regarding Ath’s driving, I believe he has obtained a cloaking device which renders him invisible to radar and speeding tickets. Either that or he beams himself from one location to another with a Star Trek transporter….so you see, he’s not really a maniac…oops!
Great letter to Fr Kelly, though it comes off as a little tongue-in-cheek on the page. It’s good to know we can add “drama” to the list of the Novus Ordo’s superlative features.
And finally, I haven’t got the slightest idea what you’re talking about regarding Kenny MacAskill and boycotting Scottish goods, so I’d better get meself over to that thread to be enlightened. Well, OK, TEMPORARILY enlightened…
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Yes, Torkay, I have a cloaking device as all good Clingons, or hangers on, should.
I see you too are a bit of a Trekkie. I love the special effects in the Star Trek movies, although not so keen on the parallel between Roddenberry’s United Federation of Planets and our very own United Nations. Similar looking being involved in both as well!
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“I’ve yet to check out the Lockerbie thread to see if Torkay or Miles Christi Sum has answered my question about whether or not that means they’ll be bidding this blog farewell…”
Dearest Editor,
I’m here to stay. You Scotties are WAY too much fun!
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Ath
I do think Roddenberry was an NWO disciple.
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My letter to Fr Kelly “tongue in cheek” Torkay? I mean, would I?
Miles Christi Sum when you say: “you Scotties are way too much fun”, are you suggesting that we Scotties are not highly competent, intellectually literate, academically able – in short, supercalifragilisticexpialidocious – Catholics?
Now, this is my homeschooling day this week, so I will be absent from the blog but with you all in spirit for much of the time. Be good until I return – or “fun” will NOT be the word that springs to mind when you all read my next post!
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Torkay
I agree and I think Leonard Nimoy (Spock) is too. If you look beneath the sci-fi aspect of Star Trek all the hallmarks of the NWO are there in the script, even from its initial televising in 1960s.
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Eh, unless I missed the conversion story, Athanasius and Torkay, what has Spock to do with the new Mass?????????
Something tells me I’ll regret asking that…
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Editor, didn’t you know the Novus Ordo was science fiction?
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“CHRISTIAN UNITY – THE FINAL FRONTIER. These are the voyages of the Starship Ecumenism. It’s open-ended mission: to legitimize strange new faiths, to seek out new forms of salvation in religious indifference, and to inoffensively dialogue where no man has dialogued before!”
-Captain Kirk (Kirk!)
Editor, never doubt the word of your faithful servant Torkay:
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It’s funny Athanasius you saying about many Traditional Catholics being converts from Protestantism! When I was on the Pentecost Pilgrimage from Paris to Chartres I met lots, and I mean lots, of young Traditional Catholics who new nothing about the NO and didn’t want to either. Either they or their parents were converts from Protestantism. I was really surprised at this I must say.
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Yes, Nuala, it’s a strange phenomenon. Who knows the mind of God, eh?
Torkay
I loved the re-writing of the introductory Star Trak script. Most appropriate.
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“Miles Christi Sum when you say: “you Scotties are way too much fun”, are you suggesting that we Scotties are not highly competent, intellectually literate, academically able – in short, supercalifragilisticexpialidocious – Catholics?”
Editor,
No, not at all! In fact, I think humor and intelligence go hand and hand. In any gifted child, humor is often synonymous with intelligence.
Are you in a home school group in which you only have to teach one day per week?
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MCS
I bet Editor has guest speakers for the other 4 days.
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Torkay
There’s no denying your sense of humour. Very good, I like it!
Miles Christi Sum
“In any gifted child, humor is often synonymous with intelligence.”
You know, my mother frequently tells me about the great sense of humour I had as a child, second only to my humility in fact.
In truth, and the others already know this, I had a difficult childhood. Yes, I was a morose and ugly child. Mine was the only pram on our street that had shutters. It’s true!
I remember being in dad’s arms once and him throwing me up in the air before going outside for a smoke.
I was so ugly, in fact, that I had to hang a pork chop around my neck to get the dog to play with me. Yes, even the fish fingers went for my throat whenever I opened the freezer door.
The regulars have read this before but I thought I might throw it in again for your amusement.
There is one true story related to me of my infanthood. I was around 2 years old at the time, so they say. The story is that I used to hide behind the couch in my baby walker watching as my mother swept the floor. She would gather up whatever dust or dirt there was and then it was a race between the two of us to see who could get to that wee pile first. My mother would make a dash for the hand shovel and I would make a dash straight for the pile and kick it all over the place.
She tells me I loved that baby walker and she would often find me slumped over it sound asleep. Some things never change, except maybe the size of the baby walker!!
Anyway, that was a long time ago when the Pope was an altar boy.
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Characteristics of a Gifted Student: –Sense of Humor
“When teaching gifted students you will find that they have an amazing sense of humor that can also be quite sophisticated and well beyond their years. Gifted children often times understand subtle humor and enjoy satire along with plays on various words. This can make a gifted child fun to be around but can also cause issues. The gifted student may get carried away with a joke because they have a hard time learning when to stop or when enough is enough. This can cause issues between then and other students. Ideally trying to teach your gifted student how to know they are taking things to far can be beneficial to them and your class ”Editor, Torkay and Athanasius,
Ya’ll are definitely gifted!
Athanasius,
Please post a current photo of you in that baby walker! PLEASE!!!!
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Miles Christi Sum
I’m sorry to say that we don’t have the facility for posting photos here. You’ll just have to use your imagination!
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Miles Christi Sum, I knew you were paying us a compliment with the “fun” comment, so worry not. I do agree that a sense of humour goes hand in hand with intelligence, but I’ve refrained from saying so publicly before, not to alert our “tone and style” critics to the fact that it is more likely their lack of a sense of humour/intelligence that is the problem.
Athanasius’s account of his earliest memories is nothing short of hilarious. I laughed as heartily at it this time, as I did first time round. Who says I’ve no brains? But, Miles Christi Sum, no need for a photo – he is, for once, being uncharacteristically humble; he was probably a very bonny baby because he is a very handsome young man now. Would fight in an empty room, of course, but handsome with it.
This link came through my inbox today so I thought it would be an interesting addition to this thread. As you’ll see I added a very short and to the point comment…
http://fratres.wordpress.com/2009/08/25/heavy-metal-mass-st-marys-eugene/ -
That was a great laugh, Athanasius’s childhood story. Editor, the link to the stuff about the heavy metal Mass was amazing. How low the standards have fallen when a Catholic is happy because the priest preaches what the Church teaches on morals but doesn’t notice that the same priest is disobeying the Church rubrics on the Mass!
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Well, well, well. Father John Kelly has replied to my email after all (see above)
However, he does not want his email published. I hope you will get the gist of it from my reply to his reply (well, if we can have the “reform of the reform” why not the “reply to the reply”?!)
Dear Fr Kelly,
All I can say now, having read your beliefs in full is thank GOD for the SSPX! There are just too many errors in your email for me to correct. Sorry, I just don’t have the time. I will, however, assuming you are proud of your views and wish them to be spread abroad (your final remarks make me sure of this) post your message on our blog.
Your suggestion that there is no crisis in the Church astonished me, not least because it has been mentioned by several Popes: your friend Pope Paul VI, who was horrified when he realised what the Second Vatican Catastrophe had unleashed on the Church, said “From somewhere, the smoke of Satan has entered the Temple of God (the Church)” In Veritatis Splendor paragraph 5, Pope John Paul II refers directly to the unprecedented crisis in the Church. And, of course, Pope Benedict is doing his best to restore the Mass, too afraid of the Freemasons and homosexuals around him to act decisively, is using the daft notion of “the reform of the reform” to try to put things right.
But, now that I know that you are not a young priest but one who should know better and is therefore culpable for the shocking heresies expressed below (e.g. there is only ONE Church, not various “branches” – that is a condemned heresy, although I believe you mean to refer to different “rites”) I’m sorry but my sympathy has evaporated.
And, please, I am not fooled by your allegedly large attendance at Mass. I’ve lived in various parts of England and always where the priest was a liberal the anything-but-faithful useful idiots flocked to his whatever passes for a pulpit these days. Let’s be fair: if you were a contraceptor where would you head? To a parish led by a traditional priest or a “Call me Joe (or John) modernist?
In any event, thank you for taking the trouble to reply to my query. I felt an indescribable sadness reading your message.
I repeat: thank GOD for the SSPX!
Patricia
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Editor and rebel,
Agreed. Great humor from the childhood of Athanasius! Editor, what a great compliment that you have paid to Athanasius. He must be blushing.
Athanasius,
Will do.
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Well, it seems that the “reform of the reform” is going the same way as Summorum Pontificum of many a long wait, if you recall.
Denials all around about any such “reform of the reform”!
http://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=3863You can see why we just MUST have a strong, fearless, courageous, reforming Pope and soon, can’t you?
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Father Kelly said : “there is no crisis in the Church ”
“The train has gone off the track. Any clear minded Christifidelis can see the train wreck. It’s obstinate, prideful and hard-headed, really to deny the objective reality and the gravity of the crisis.”
— Father Christopher Danel SSPX — Roswell, Georgia USA -
Miles Christi Sum
Blushing will give me, for a little while anyway, a countenance other than my normal ‘ghost of Christmas past’ one!! It was very kind of editor to say those nice things about me. It will give some hope at least the next time I look in the mirror.
Now, as regards Fr. Kelly’s letter, editor. What a load of twaddle. Does he think we Catholics came down with the last shower, or what? His was one of the most obscure descriptions of the Mass and tradition that I have had the misfortune to attempt to make sense of. And what was that bit about Catholics during Mass being “almost” on Calvary? How can we be almost on Calvary during Mass?
The Mass is either Christ’s true sacrifice on Calvary there present in an unbloody manner before us, or it’s a Protestant meal with a hint of Calvary. I think you should send that Remnant link to Mgr. Bartolucci to him.
Here it is: http://www.remnantnewspaper.com/Archives/2009-0831-ferrara-catholic_tradition_vindicated.htm
Remember to tell him that he has to scroll down a little on the page to get to the interview.
Your own response to him was first class, but I doubt that or the Remnant interview will change his opinions. I think he has lost the Catholic Faith. He must have done if he honestly believes what he wrote in that letter. Incredible stuff!
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Ed, great 2nd letter to the malformed and brainwashed – or shall we just call him utterly confused – Father/Presider Kelly, but I wish you had dismantled it point by point. Of course, such a dismantling would have consumed every last bit of storage space on this blog……
….if I get really ambitious I might have a crack at some of his more egregiously embarrassing nonsense tomorrow, but first I must get my beauty rest so I can try to be as handsome as Athanasius.
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” but first I must get my beauty rest so I can try to be as handsome as Athanasius.”
Oh Torkay, you crack me up! I’m sure that you are a prince Charming, as well.
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I’ve just had a reply to my reply from Fr Kelly and he is not happy that I have published his letter, so, after a rather lengthier reply to him than previously, I have promised, as a gesture of goodwill, to delete his letter.
I did so in the hope that he will now give serious thought to the issues. Since he is of an age to know better, I’m hoping that he will now think again.
I suggested he follow this blog, because we have several sound priests who post comments fairly regularly. I just hope they all get back from holiday soon!
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Torkay
“but first I must get my beauty rest so I can try to be as handsome as Athanasius.”
Let’s say two hours a night should do the trick, Torkay!
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Ath
I have a feeling Editor would say it would take a lot more than two hours…
Editor
I suspected Presider Kelly would not be happy about his letter appearing here, but you have now eliminated my morning project, which was to dissect said letter. Oh well, I suppose I can go look up the latest population figures for Glasgow instead…
But what about your “rather lengthier reply”? Can you post that?
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If I remember correctly, one of the more bizarre statements in Fr/Pr Kelly’s now verboten letter was something to the effect that we are all being sacrificed on the altar.
This reminded me of a bogus school of post-Conciliar thought I’ve encountered several times, which claims that Christ is not only present in the Eucharist, but also among the assembly (i.e. the laity present), in the Gospel, in the music, the building, etc.
This is just another clever tactic to destroy belief in the Real Presence. Or to put it another way, we’ve all heard of the Marxist “redistribution of wealth.” Well, this is a Marxist “redistribution of Presence.”
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Dear Father Kelly, I hope you read this. I am a 19 year old soon to be medical student who considers herself quite normal. I socialise in pubs and clubs, go to dances etc., and find it difficult to settle down to my daily Rosary. I want to tell you that it is priests like yourself who are driving young, intelligent, normal young people away from the Church. We don’t want a soft option (yet!) as we haven’t been exposed to contraception dilemmas and other difficult moral areas. No doubt that will come when we end up falling in love! If I get up out of bed on a Sunday morning, after a late night out, to attend Mass, I am not looking for a feel good factor but some sound doctrine and an inspiring liturgy. If I wanted fellowship I could get it from my friends and if I wanted modern music I could turn on my radio. I want my soul to be fed and priests like you are not feeding souls. In churches, mainly of the traditional variety, where the Faith is passed on in it’s entirety, there are lots of devout young people.
As my older brother says: priests are ordained as “other Christs” and if they don’t live that, they might as well have a cuddly wife and stop pretending to be what they are not. May God bless you.
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Here’s the Pope’s Secretary offering Mass – take the hint Fr Kelly et al
http://cathcon.blogspot.com/2009/08/popes-secretary-faces-towards-lord-at.html -
And here’s a bit more detail on the Reform of the Deform(ed) via this week’s Catholic Herald
http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/articles/a0000624.shtmlThe liberals are already screaming “regressive” in the Zenit letters page!
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It seems the response to: The Lord be with you—”And with your Spirit” is a denial of the incarnation. Just as Jesus came as a full human PERSON –and not a Spirit–we HUMAN PERSONS–are not just spirits but whole and entire humans—and so the response: “And also with you” makes much more theological sense. When the church thus denies the Incarnation–it is no longer the true church.
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