Apart from the 13 year old girl who described the Fatima Conference held in the Crowne Plaza Hotel in Glasgow as “fantastic” and “the best experience I’ve ever had”, the following emailed message from Michael, who organised a busload from Newcastle, perhaps helps to give a flavour of the impact of the day: “On behalf of myself and of the squad from Tyneside, please except our sincere thanks to your Team for such a wonderful Conference, and the excellent meal, that was so unexpected, God Bless you All! As I was able to get to Confession at the Hotel; it was good to leave my many sins on Scottish soil!”
Both Father Nicholas Gruner and Father Paul Kramer gave excellent talks and some of the bloggers, keen to discuss the details of the talks, have prompted this thread.
So, if you were present at the Conference and wish to comment, feel free. If you were not able to attend and wish to ask a question, go ahead.
The fact of the matter is that this Conference was a truly memorable and graced occasion. There were many “spin-offs” that, in the nature of things, it would not be appropriate to divulge, but we are truly thankful that this event appears to have made a huge impact on many souls. One seasoned Conference attender told me that this was the best Conference she had ever attended.
We are praying that it will be a turning point for Scotland even if, again in the nature of things, the truth of this will remain hidden in this world.
Anyway, click on ‘comments’ if you wish to share your experiences of the Conference or if you have a question to ask.
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This was a truly grace-filled conference on the Feast of the Holy Name of Mary.
The facts revealed by Frs. Gruner and Kramer prove, without any doubt, that the Vatican has not released the entire Third Secret of Fatima. It has withheld the words of Our Lady (the 25 lines of text) which describe the meaning of the vision released by the Vatican on June 26, 2000.
Cardinal Sodano’s interpretation of that vision, e.g., that it refers to a past event, namely the attempted assassination of Pope John Paul II on May 13, 1981, just doesn’t make any sense. Indeed, it is an insult to the faithful that His Eminence would even try to match this vision of a Pope dying under a hail of bullets and arrows outside a half ruined city with a lone gunman’s failed attempt to kill the Pope.
Yes, the Vatican is hiding the real interpretation of that vision which is that a great number of clergy, from the top down, will apsostatise from the true Catholic Faith.
Fr. Kramer revealed that he had spoken with an old Bavarian priest who was very well known to St. Padre Pio and was also a friend of Cardinal Ratzinger.
This priest told Fr. Kramer that Cardinal Ratzinger had informed him some years ago that the text of the Third Secret referred to “an evil Council” in the Church and a warning from heaven about the suicide of altering the liturgy.
When this information failed to materialise with the Vatican’s year 2000 publication of what it said was the entire Secret, this Bavarian priest, who had just concelebrated a Mass with Cardinal Ratzinger, asked him in the sacristy what had happened. The Cardinal admitted to him that not everything had been revealed.
This was astounding information which I had never heard before and it came from an authoritive source. These priests are not lying. They only repeat what they have heard from authoritive and absolutely trustworthy sources.
Also, they revealed that Archbishop Loris Capovilla, a one-time private secretary to Pope John XXIII, has confirmed recently that there are two texts to the Third Secret, the first contains the vision and the other contains the words of Our Lady explaining the vision. The Third Secret is about the changes in the Church following Vatican II and the great loss of the Catholic Faith amongst the clergy and the faithful following those changes.
I found Fr. Gruner to be a very soft spoken, holy and devout priest devoted to his priesthood, to Our Lady and to the Church and the Papacy. Yet, he has been falsely branded by annonymous sources within the Vatican as “not in good standing” and “suspended.”
There is no official document anywhere to be found which names Fr. Gruner’s offence (s) or even who it was that suspended him. The Apostolic Signatura is said to have upheld his suspension, yet the Apostolic Signatura is merely a court of appeal within the Church which has no power to suspend anyone.
Neither the Pope, nor the Congregation for the Clergy, nor any Churchman with authority to suspend a priest is named as having suspended Fr. Gruner, let alone any imagined crime that he has committed. The truth is that by announcing that ‘a Vatican source has confirmed Fr. Gruner’s suspension’ the enemies of Fatima inside the Vatican itself hope to give the impression that Fr. Gruner is officially suspended when, in fact, he is not. These anonymous sources have been fairly successful in muddying the good name and reputation of Fr. Gruner, and thereby silencing his great work of uncovering their attempts to play down Our Lady’s warnings and deceive the people.
This conference was so well attended and everyone present felt the grace of unity in our great Catholic Faith and devotion to the Blessed Virgin. We all left with the intention to be more faithful to Our Lady’s requests at Fatima and a greater determination to make Her Message and Secret known to others and to pray and petition the Holy Father to reveal the entire Secret and command the Bishops of the world to finally join with him in making that public and solemn consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary which is so essential to a restoration of all things in Christ and a time of true peace in the world.
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In the event that some still doubt that the Third Secret of Fatima contains a prophecy of apostasy from the Faith by a great many prelates, priests, religious and laity, here’s what Pope Pius XII announced concerning Our Lady’s words:
“I am worried by the Blessed Virgin’s messages to Lucy of Fatima. This persistence of Mary about the dangers which menace the Church is a Divine warning against the suicide of altering the Faith, in Her liturgy, Her theology and Her soul. . . . I hear all around me innovators who wish to dismantle the Sacred Chapel, destroy the universal flame of the Church, reject her ornaments and make her feel remorse for her historical past.
A day will come when the civilized world will deny its God, when the Church will doubt as Peter doubted. She will be tempted to believe that man has become God. In our churches, Christians will search in vain for the red lamp where God awaits them. Like Mary Magdalene, weeping before the empty tomb, they will ask, “Where have they taken Him?” [Roche, Pie XII Devant L'Histoire, pp. 52-53.]
How astoundingly appropriate are these words with what we witness going on in the Church today?
But the Third Secret also ties in with the apparition of Our Lady to a nun in Akita, Japan in 1973, or so said Cardinal Ratzinger. In this approved apparition, Our Lady spoke of the same clerical apostasy, the altering of the Catholic Faith and the loss of millions of souls culminating in a divine chastisement upon the world in the form of “fire from heaven” that will wipe out a great part of humanity and make those who are left behind feel “delosate.”
This also ties in with what Pope Pius XII said AFTER the horrors of World War II:
“The world must soon undergo suffering such as never existed in the history of the world. Soon the human race must undergo the worst suffering that there has ever been.”
All those who continue to argue that the Church is on the right path since Vatican II should study these warnings and prophecies in the light of what must be obvious to them by now after 40 years of the destruction of Faith and morals. They should then take the necessary steps to rediscover their heritage in the true Mass and Faith of Trent.
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Wow! I would have absolutely LOVED the conference.
Editor
You deserve a “pat” on the back.
Athanasius
Well said. You need to write a book!
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Ath
Thanks for those inspiring words!
Editor
Will there be tape recordings of the talks?
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I predict that there will be something very special come of Saturday’s Conference. Athanasius was correct: surely most will have left with a firm resolution to be more faithful to Our Lady’s requests. Indeed, I left with a big pile of the free literature, which will be concealed in an envelope and posted through my parish priest’s front door. A few doubting friends will also receive copies.
The talks by the two priests were absolutely outstanding. A few things really stuck out for me. Father Kramer’s talk on the “errors of Russia” really put the whole thing into perspective. Father told us that Communism’s parent organisation is Freemasonry, whose parent organisation is paganism, which is completely satanic. So the battle against Communism is truly abattle against the Devil.
I agree that Pope Benedict XVI needs our prayers. Father Gruner acknowledged that a he is certainly a man of good will. However, given his liberal past, he has many dangerous enemies. Father told us that Pope Benedict believed he would be (believes he will be?) killed as a result of the Motu Proprio. Unbelievable.
I think the one thing that we all got from this Conference was the realisation that all the evils in the world today are linked to Fatima. Fatima corresponds to what is in the Book of Revelation. That’s why, along with the unprecendented public miracle of the sun, Fatima cannot be regarded as a “private revelation”.
The press conference of 26 June 2000 only told us half the story. Cardinal Sodano, in an act of great pride, attempted to interpret the third secret – as if he knew better than Our Lady!! No, Our Lady explained the vision to Sister Lucy. This explanation is written in the form of a letter and is still being concealed by the Vatican today. We now know for certain why the Third Secret would become much clearer by 1960 – it warns of an evil council and the danger of destroying the Mass.
The logical conclusion that anyone who believes in God can come to is this: Russia must be consecrated to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, we must all pray the rosary daily, keep the first five Saturdays and do penance, the Traditional Roman Rite must be restored in it’s fullness, the Novus Ordo Missae must be binned, along with ALL the documents of the Second Vatican Council. Father explained that in Modernist literature the Catholic Faith can be expressed beautifully on one page and contradicted on the next. No, Our Lady said there would be an evil council and 1960 was a crucial year. So let’s stop the pretence and consign the evil council to the dustbin.
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This was a very enlightening conference, even for those who are already adherents to the mission of Fr Grüner and Fr Kramer for the propagation of the message of Fatima.
Others have already mentioned the content, and I merely wish to commend the organisers who made it possible. Events like this do not just happen, and a tremendous amount of effort must have gone into the logistics, even though the staff of the Crown Plaza undoubtedly played their part as conference hosts.
The continuity man brought some humour to the formalities, saying that in the event of a fire, every one should follow him calmly in the flight to the exit.
The Master of Ceremonies kept an iron hand on the proceedings, and the priest-Chairman was particularly good in controlling questions from the floor, and this was much appreciated – well played Father.
Madame Editor very thoughtfully met the needs of those who needed to eat on Friday night by arranging a meal at Fazzi’s Italian restaurant, and I was able to match faces to bloggers Naomi, Gloria and Introibo, as well as to Jacinta, Bernadette and Athanasius on the day. Sadly, Jacinta did not leap up from her chair and run at the sight of me bearing down on her, but we all pray that this ability will be restored to her in God’s own good time. I missed Rebel and also Petrus, but I hope he will soon be announcing good news from Mrs Petrus.
Finally I want to put on record the sincere thanks of those non-residents of Scotland whose Saturday evening banquet was paid for by an anonymous donor. Whoever you may be, Sir or Madam, we all thank you for that very generous act of hospitality.
May God bless us all and have mercy on our detractors.
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Leprechaun
Well said. I tried to seek you out on Saturday to no avail. I will inform bloggers as soon as the blogger Martha delivers Mini-Petrus or Petra. Please everyone, true to the family spirit of this blog, please pray for us to St Gerard and Our Lady of Fatima!
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A unique conference! It has made me more fervent in my devotion to ‘Our Lady of Fatima’ in my family rosary, I also intend for the first time to complete the First Five Saturdays and to do penance regularly.
My husband is even more interested in the matter. I felt privileged to be there and to hear and meet Fr. Kramer and Fr. Gruner in person – Two wonderful and courageous men, and I offer a tremendous Thank You to the Editor for making this possible.
Fr. Gruner asked all of us to take some material and ‘pass the Message on’ about Fatima – I took this message very seriously indeed – I would love to help him do this. It would be good if a group of us could take his material and set up a stall (table) somewhere (Glasgow, Edinburgh, anywhere etc) and promote the message of Fatima. I would not have the confidence to do this myself as I am not much of a leader or public speaker but some of you may have these qualities, so if we managed to get some volunteers and a group of us could make it simple and choose a day and a place to set up a stall , I would be the first to join the queue – Just a suggestion.
The chairman for the question and answer session did a great job and his presence helped to make the day a success.
I agree with Petrus and quote “The logical conclusion that anyone who believes in God can come to is this: Russia must be consecrated to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, we must all pray the rosary daily, keep the first five Saturdays and do penance, the Traditional Roman Rite must be restored in it’s fullness, the Novus Ordo Missae must be binned, along with ALL the documents of the Second Vatican Council”:-
Petrus, I second this! I will keep your wife in my prayers and hope all goes well!
I must add, that I made Fr. Gruner and myself a promise that I would help pass on the Fatima Message to as many people as I can, so the first person I came into contact with was my sister who was looking after my children while I attended the conference. So I kept to my word and also gave her some of the Fatima materials – I intend to keep this up as best I can as far as my capabilities allow me.
I also sent an envelope of some the Fatima material with a nice (kind) covering note to my child’s head teacher hoping she would find the information of some interest – I would love to be a ‘fly on the wall’ when she opens the envelope – I hope she receives it in the kind manner it was intended.
I have two people visiting me this week, and I intend to tell them about the conference and Fatima Message.
I also plan to send regular holy post-card’s to the Vatican with a message asking the Pope to release the Message to the world and to Consecrate Russia the way Our Lady of Fatima asked – So if anyone has such post-cards, please let me know, otherwise I will ask Fr. Gruner to send me some. I think Richard Docherty had these cards at one time in the past – so if you have any left I would appreciate them.
The only way forward is for everyone to pray the Rosary every day and spread the Message of Fatima!
Fantastic Conference – Well done to all!! – Dare I ask…when will the next one be!!!!!!!!!
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Bernadette
I think you are onto something. Perhaps we could do some distributing of literature outside various parishes? I’d be up for that.
Thank you for the promise of prayers.
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Well done Catholic Truth team for another successful conference!
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Bernadette
Fr. Gruner mentioned this little apostolate you refer to. He said that too many people just throw their arms up in the air thinking the crisis to serious for them to be able to make any impact. Yet, he insists that this is defeatism and encourages all to do their little bit by handing out literature on Fatima and petitioning the Holy Father.
The last petition sent to His Holiness in the matter of the consecration of Russia contained 400,000 signatures. Fr. Gruner told us that a very high source within the Roman Curia said that this amount of signatures impressed him greatly. He counted every one personally. So we can make a difference by the grace of God.
Petrus
You may be assured of my prayers for the birth of your baby, but remember the tactic I told you about. Jump out on the wife and give her a good fright, that should get the labour started!!
Leprechaun
I agree with everything you say in your post but I want to add that it was a great privilege to meet you and your good wife in the flesh, as well as Naomi and several others. So many traditional Catholics and devotees of Our Lady in the same room. It doesn’t get better than that.
My thanks also to editor and the other Catholic Truth folks who put in a tremendous amount of effort to make this great day possible. And my thanks to our MC for the day who handled things perfectly, as did our priest/chairman. The whole thing was fantastic.
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Editor
What a great conference!!!!!!!!! Many thanks to the Catholic truth team! It was also good to see Betty there.
As I am only thirteen it has been a good experience for me to see two famous priests, Fr. Gruner and Fr. Kramer. I have read many of Fr. Gruners Fatima Crusades and I never once thought I would meet him. I had a blessing from him also and Fr. Gruner and Fr. Kramer talks have inspired me very much. I would be prepared to join a group to promote the Fatima Message.
I plan to join the SSPX Rosary Crusade advertised in their recent newsletter booklet.
God Bless
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Gemma,
That was a great post. I can only hope that my children will be reading such high quality literature when they are your age. It’s great that you would be prepared to join a group – we must get this sorted and not let the momentum slip.
I forgot to say, well done to the two young ladies who were serving at the book stall at the back. They were very polite and professional.
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I was talking to a friend last night and she had the idea of starting a wee rosary group, in response to the Conference. I think this is a good idea.
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Thank you Petrus I am not Great at English but I am trying my best. I never liked reading books but My mother told me it would help with my vocabulary so I started reading books last year and I recommend Enid Blyton series summer term at St. Claire’s’ and the sixty-two book series of the ‘Chalet School’ by Elinor M. Brent-Dyer, a very good author. These books are said to be for twelve to thirteen year olds.
I also think the Rosary group is a great idea!
God Bless
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I think the rosary group is a great idea and would be happy to join it.
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The Conference held at the Crowne Plaza hotel on Saturday was excellent.
The atmosphere on the day I can only describe as grace filled. A timely event 92 years after Our Lady appeared to the three children at Fatima.
We were most fortunate in our Master of Ceremonies and Priest-Chairman who most ably held the reins on the day – Well done.The enemies of Fatima are doing their damnedest to keep what Our Lady said and asked us to do out of the limelight, as though it were of no consequence. Both Father Gruner and Father Kramer gave many facts on Fatima. One thing for sure is that we have a most powerful weapon in the Rosary. Our Lady has requested we all pray it, and make many sacrifices, expecially now for His Holiness Pope Benedict and every Bishop in the world that they will consecrate Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary.
How else will Satan and all those who aid him can be defeated?
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Gemma
The Fatima Crusader will certainly help your RE. I think you are Reading some really great books. Your Mum is clearly doing a very good job.
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Hats off to the editor for a great day on saturday, i.ve been to a few events in my time and i must say the organisers of this one excelled themselves ,so well done all concerned.
The guest speakers were very informative and eager to indulge thier vast array of knowledge. -
sorry for the typos and gramatical errors!
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Gemma
It is very pleasing to see a young Catholic like you writing with devotion for Our Lady. Such devotion in young people is particularly pleasing to Her and so the prayers of the young are very powerful with God. I agree with Petrus, your mother is doing a great job.
Just think of the special grace you have received, to console the Heart of Our Lady when so many others of your age offend Her through ignorance or neglect. The devil has always sought to corrupt the morals of the young because he knows that it pains the sacred hearts of Our Lord and Our Lady all the more. But they are consoled by your prayers and thse of other devoted youngsters. Keep up the good work and you’ll win many blessings for yourself, your family and other souls.
Re the suggestion of a rosary group. I would suggest that we should all concentrate this year in offering five decades of the rosary in our own homes each day in union with the rosary crusade of the SSPX. This is a very significant crusade and we will be united in spirit with thousands of other Catholics throughout the world in offering our prayers for the triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary.
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Athanasius,
I second that! I will sign up for the SSPX Rosary Crusade.
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Very interesting that Pope Benedict thought he might (may) be killed for issuing the motu proprio. I daresay the Freemasons considered that, but decided that it would only rally the faithful en masse and cause them even more trouble, and that therefore they decided to have their bishop fifth column simply ignore it.
I also think their failure to eliminate JPII has had an effect on them, as hinted at by Fr. Malachi Martin in “Windswept House.”
Congratulations to one and all on what sounds like a truly joyful occasion.
Now, where is Editor hiding? Did someone send her to the doghouse?
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Athanasius
Good thinking.
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I’m late as usual, the M6 southbound evidently being completely rebuilt and I, therefore, requiring a long lie-in this morning, so I can only second everything that has been said above. I was truly amazed at the huge scale of this Conference, and really cannot imagine how Editor managed to pull it all together so seamlessly while keeping so many other balls in the air. What a woman! “Far and to the uttermost coasts…..”!
So a thousand thanks to her, as well as to the speakers, Frs. Gruner and Kramer, our much, much more than capable Fr. Chairman, and to all the other priests and laity who contributed in any way, publicly or privately to such a day.
Thanks to all their efforts, I, and I am sure many others, have a totally new understanding as to why so many people, including all our better-informed bloggers, have always been been so insistent on the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. The evidence adduced as to the content of Our Lady’s yet-to-be-revealed explanation of the vision was compelling and absolutely terrifying. Pope Pius XII’s prophetic words, and their fulfillment seen all around us in the Church today leave no room for doubt that we need to be very afraid. There is certainly a dreadful urgency for each one of us to do all that is humanly possible to further the true Fatima message and to pray as never before for what cannot be humanly done.
I will certainly do what Athanasius suggests re five decades of the rosary each day in union with the rosary crusade – my ability to pray the rosary having been much improved by bloggers’ suggestions. and I would like to take part in any joint attempts to spread the message about the missing part of the third secret..
On the lighter side, it was so good, if a bit strange, to meet some bloggers face to face. I will always think of Gloria when I am about to eat a very large ice-cream, though you don’t get any as big as those we ate in Fazzi’s in England – and I’m always trying. But some Illusions have been shattered. I will never again think of Leprechaun, tip-toeing around the garden wearing a green hat, or digging at the end of the rainbow. Athanasius has disappointingly not got a face like a bag of spanners, as he has claimed more than once. On the contrary! As for Introibo, he is much too young to be so full of wisdom. At least my avatar tells the truth about my advanced age.
Unlike some, I will not ask about the next conference yet. Let poor Ed get over this one first!
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Well Naomi, someone sure whispered temptations in my ear as regards ice cream. Unfortunately resistance was futile, therefore I succumbed. But folks, between you and me, I did have company in eating that scrumptious stuff. But note, our large portion of ice cream amounted to three scoops. Not one of us dared try the giant five scoop version. Am glad to hear that you arrived home safely. It was good to put faces to Naomi and Leprechaun. And Leprechaun, I will get round to having my avatar improved upon.
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Gloria,
Who does your avatar represent please?
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I don’t really have anything to add to what hasn’t been said already. What a fantastic day! What a privilege and a grace to have been there!
Many thanks to Editor for all the work she put in to making it come about, and thank you so much for your kindness to my wife and me. It was what we needed and I feel we’ve benefitted greatly from the day. It was like being on retreat!
I’m still none the wiser as to who most of the bloggers are, but I guess I’ll learn in time! It was so interesting speaking to many of the different people there, and we had the pleasure of getting a chat with Fr Kramer. I’ve always known there were problems with the new liturgy, but this has helped me to see just how harmful it is to the Faith among other things. It makes sense of the state of things today.
I’ve got enough reading material to keep me out of trouble for a while, and we have redoubled our efforts in the Rosary and the Sacraments. I’ll definately sign up for the Rosary Crusade now, and if a group does come off the ground, I’d love to take part.
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If I remember correctly it is supposed to be the Angel Gabriel. But I may very well look at avatars again at female saints.
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Grignion
I’m sorry I didn’t get to meet you in the flesh, there were just so many people present it was impossible to meet and talk to everyone. What I did experience, though, was a real Catholic family spirit amongst everyone.
The modernists say terrible things about Frs. Gruner and Kramer, yet these two priests, as well as the other clerics present, brought so much grace to us on the day. They did what Catholic priests should do, e.g., raise our hearts and minds to God and heavenly things and for that we will all, I’m sure, be eternally grateful.
It is noteworthy that good and holy priests such as these are calumniated and persecuted while the indifferent, neglectful and sometimes downright dangerous ones are applauded and left in peace by their bishops.
I find it personally nauseating that not one single prelate in Scotland had even the slightest interest in finding out what Frs. Gruner and Kramer have to say about Fatima. One can accept ignorance and prejudice against Our Lady’s Fatima Message at laity level, but not at clerical level and certainly not at prelate level.
In every other country visited by these two priests, Archbishops, bishops and even Cardinals have come to hear them speak. Yet, in this country not one came to show their interest in Our Lady’s Message and Secret. They pretend it’s to do with this supposed suspension of Fr. Gruner, but no one with an ounce of understanding of the Church’s legislative process can justify such a dishonest claim. Fr. Gruner has never disobeyed his superiors or offended in any way against the Church. I know the whole sequence of events that led up to the lie that he is suspended. If ever their were signs of a diabolical influence in the Church, it is in this lie about Fr. Gruner.
The truth of the matter is that they simply want to silence him and they will do whatever is necessary, lying included, to achieve their end. The same process was used against Archbishop Lefebvre and the SSPX. Yet, as I say, not one single heretic, schismatic or paedophile cleric has been treated as these men of God.
It tells us something that the bishops in Scotland protect immoral and/or heretical priests (until the media forces their hand, of course!), yet frown upon those priests faithful to Our Lady and sacred tradition. Truly, these prelates need many prayers. May Our Lord have mercy on them!
On a lighter note, it was great to see Petrus, Crossraguel, gloria, Iain Colquohoun and Introibo at the conference, as well as so many other friendly souls I hadn’t previously met.
And a wee mention also of the young mentally handicapped man, whose adoptive parents have loved and cared for him in a way that is truly inspirational to the Catholic. To see this innocent soul there honouring Our Lady with his rosary was truly moving, although I must take issue with him in his choice of waltzers over divebombers (private joke).
Naomi
You’re too kind! I applaud you and all those other people who travelled such long distances for Our Lady. And to think that so many local Catholic bishops, priests and people snubbed Her Fatima appeal on the feast of Her holy name. It’s truly heart rending!
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Sorry for the typo in the following sentence from above: “If ever their were signs of a diabolical influence in the Church, it is in this lie about Fr. Gruner.”
“Their” should read there.
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Athanasius,
Thank you for that, but you did meet me in the flesh! -
Did I? I don’t remember your blog username being mentioned, but, then, I have always been bad with names. My sincere apologies. Can you give me something to jog my memory?
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Welcome to our blog, Thomas – your first post is very interesting, although I’m curious to know precisely which part(s) of the speakers’ “vast array” of knowledge most impressed and/or helped you – so, when you find a minute…
Torkay, I’ve been spending today with one of the last Irish visitors who graced our shores for this Conference – a beautiful Irish lady who was very wise to get married instead of entering a Silent Order! She could (and did) talk for Ireland!
So, I’ve just returned from Prestwick Airport where I deposited herself and Father Paul Kramer. Fr Gruner has gone south to England where he will be visiting some people and giving a talk, I believe in London on the 19th. Anyone interested in attending that should ring the SSPX house to check venue and time and confirm date. Contact Saint George’s House, 125 Arthur Rd, SW19 7DR Tel: 020 8946 7916
Your comments have made my heart sing; so much love for Our Lady and desire to obey the Fatima message. I am deeply humbled to have played some part in bringing Father Gruner to these shores, but you need to know that it was Athanasius who telephoned him in the first instance to invite him for us, he (right Clever Clogs) having Father’s telephone number is his wee black book.
One person who must be given due credit for the success of the Conference is Miss McMoneypenny who nodded (sometimes with tears in her eyes) when I asked her to offer up her sickness and suffering, her paralysis and her inability to speak, for the spiritual benefit or all who were going to attend our Conference.
There is no doubt at all that there have already been great graces from the day and there will be more to come, even if we never hear about them.
So, thank you all for coming – and for being so receptive to the priest-speakers.
I agree with Athanasius, that it is nothing short of a tragedy that not one of our bishops and so few of our priests, attended. It was great to meet those priests who did attend and the priests from England made me want to move back down there. One of the priests from the north of England was heading off straight back south at the end of the Conference – a long train journey ahead of him – which only highlights further the lack of Catholic faith and spirituality of the Scottish clergy. Let’s redouble our prayers of them – they’re going to need all the prayers they can get if they are to be converted before meeting Our Lord at their judgement to answer for their negligence on this earth. They’ll get a shock when they discover that supporting Celtic Football Club is no substitute for Catholic spiritual and moral leadership.
Finally, I feel SO privileged to have met Fathers Gruner and Kramer. But no wonder Father Gruner is so hated! Humble, pleasant, kind, non-judgemental, zealous for souls, deep love of the Mass – my goodness, no wonder the enemies of the Church insist that he is suspended when he’s clearly no such thing!
God bless you all for attending on Saturday and for your positive feedback here. Thank you Athanasius for your excellent initial posts highlighting key points from the talks.
And as for “the next one” – what next one? You really MUST be kidding!
A renewed welcome, Thomas – do, please, keep blogging with us!
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Miles Christi Sum & Torkay
I’m sorry that neither of you could make the trip to Scotland for the conference, but you’ll certainly share in the graces of the day by the very fact that you wanted to be present. I’ve met Torkay already, he gave a great talk at last year’s event, but I would have liked to have met you too, MCS. Maybe one day!
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There is very little I can add to the existing comments on this thread. This conference was one of the most uplifting and inspirational events I’ve ever attended. It was great as usual to see editor, Athanasius, Petrus, Jacinta and crouchback, and also fantastic to meet Naomi, Iain Colquhoun and leprechaun, as well as several other great people who don’t blog here as far as I know. Particularly inspiring were the clerical attendees: Frs. Gruner and Kramer, Frs. McLaughlin and Sherry from the SSPX and the diocesan priests from down south. It’s not easy being a traditional Catholic, that’s for sure. It can be quite lonely at times, but being in an environment with so many people who were on the same wavelength was a welcome change to say the least.
The talks were absolutely fantastic and the way in which Frs. Gruner and Kramer answered even the toughest questions with such clarity and patience was inspiring. Fr. Kramer’s talk put the current struggle between good and evil in the Church in context in a way which was easy to understand, and I felt I came away with a much fuller understanding of the significance of Fatima to these troubled times. As for Fr. Gruner – with all respect to the wonderful devout and orthodox priests of the SSPX, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a cleric speak with such passion and devotion about Our Lord and Our Lady. Was it just me, or did Father seem on the verge of tears once or twice when talking about Our Lady’s role in our salvation?
The fact that both of these wonderful, holy men have been persecuted so strongly for their devotion to the message of Fatima proves that the diabolical disorientation spoken of by Sister Lucy is very much a reality. Fr. Kramer is currently in poor health and was clearly suffering as a result of the heat in the room, yet he was happy to fly over here for the benefit of poor souls. What a contrast to the heretics and perverts who are lauded by the hierarchy in Scotland and around the world!
These talks weren’t for the faint-hearted. Some parts made the hair on the back of my neck stand on end, especially the part about H.H. Benedict XVI fearing for his life after releasing the Motu Proprio. However, I’m sure I wasn’t the only one who came away with a great sense of hope and joy. As Our Lady said, and as Fr. Gruner reminded us on Saturday, in the end the Immaculate Heart will triumph.
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editor
Re your comments about Miss McMoneypenny (our very own Jacinta). I thought she looked great! She still gets tired and has obvious difficulty with talking right now, but otherwise she looked a picture of health. It is truly nothing short of a miracle that she was present at the Fatima conference. To think that only weeks ago she was not expected to see the night through and now she’s well on the road to recovery. It is another of those miracles of recovery we hear related of extreme unction, no question.
Thomas
I too welcome you to the blog and wonder, did we meet at the conference?
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introibo – fantastic post!
No, you didn’t imagine it; Fr Gruner was close to tears a couple of times.
I had the privilege of enjoying a meal with him and Fr Kramer on Sunday evening and had a quiet few moments with him before we parted company.
I’ve been telling anyone who would listen all day, that this is the first time in my life I can truthfully say that I felt I was in the presence of a saintly priest. I can’t think of him without the tears coming to my eyes. He loves Our Lady and the Church – no question about it.
I feel so sorry, really for our Bishops and priests. They – literally – don’t know what they’re missing. They’re committed to what Christopher Ferrara called “The Great Facade” of Catholicism; they’re members of the counterfeit Church and you know what? They’d have known that for a fact, if they’d attended our Conference on Saturday. God help them.
introibo – brilliant post. Thank you.
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Editor
My sincerest and heartfelt congratulations for putting together this blessed and life-changing event. I have a feeling there was joy in Heaven as well as on earth that day, that magnified the Holy Name of Mary.
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introibo
You are absolutely right, I also noticed the emotion in Fr. Gruner when he spoke of Our Lady. This touched me greatly. It reminded me of the way Padre Pio used to weep at the consecration of the Mass. These priests are saints. Such is Fr. Gruner’s love of God and Our Lady that he has to restrain his tears when speaking of the offences committed against them.
I agree with you that he is a kindly, soft spoken, non-judgmental, pleasant and devout priest of God, as is Fr. Kramer. And I was so proud of our SSPX priests, Frs. McLaughlin and Sherry for being there present with them to proclaim Our Lady’s Fatima Message and Secret, as I was of those other priests who travelled up from England. These priestly souls are the salt of the earth.
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Athanasius
You were sitting next to me during Fr Kramer’s talk in the morning! Between my wife and Petrus!
M -
Gemma,
Here is a list of books recommended for children of various ages. It has been compiled by traditional Catholic teachers and priests. Perhaps you or your mum could have a look at it and buy some of the books which you are interested in:
http://www.edocere.org/book_summaries/good_books_for_children.htmI didn’t talk to you at the event (although I think I may have seen you) but I’d just like to say that it’s fantastic to see somebody of your age who loves their Catholic Faith so much and is so committed to learning more about it. Like I said, a lot of the stuff in the talks was pretty frightening, so the fact that you loved them so much shows the liberals are wrong when they say we shouldn’t teach youngsters about Hell and the Devil.
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I know you well, M, but I didn’t know your blog name. So it’s yourself? Well fan my brow and slap my face with a slippery fish and call me Brenda! I would never have guessed. It was good to see you and Mrs. M, even though we meet on a regular basis. Thanks for not making me stew for a while before telling!!
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Athanasius
I would have liked to have met you, also! Yes, maybe one day! If you, or any of the others ever visit the Masters Golf Tournament, give me a call. That is the city where I reside.
Thank you all for sharing snippets of the conference with the rest of us. I have enjoyed reading each one. I do have a question for whoever might know the answer. Firstly, I do believe that the Third Secret pertains to an evil council and an altering of the liturgy.
My question is: Since Lucia knew that the New Mass was a heretic departure from the faith, why did she continue to attend it?
I have my own thoughts regarding this, yet I wondered if the good Fathers Gruner and Kramer may have spoken on this.
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Athanasius,
I don’t think we got onto the sujest of the blog, and as we normally tell people our real names when we meet them in the real world, it’s easy enough not to know who pepole are! In fact, I only knw who you were because Petrus told Majella (Mrs M) and she told me! -
Just a further thank you to Editor and the team for a fabulous weekend. Also to Fr Chairpersonwho is an inspiration and a great example. What a treat to listen to two courageous Priests who are not afraid to speak the truth. Athanasius’ idea on joining the SSPX Rosary Crusade is excellent.
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Grignion
And now, thanks to your comments above, I know who Majella is. It’s no less than Mrs. M! And how are the wee Grignion Majella’s doing? Or should that be the mini M’s?
Miles Christi Sum
Neither Fr. Gruner nor Fr. Kramer were asked to comment on the question you raise here, although I’ve seen this question raised a few times.
My understanding of the situation regarding Sr. Lucy’s presence at the New Mass, and it’s unknown as to whether she attended the NO outside of Papal Masses she commanded to be present at, is that hers was a mission from heaven to spread devotion to Our Lady’s Immaculate Heart and to encourage the Holy Father to consecrate Russia and reveal the Third Secret.
If she had taken a public stance on the Mass, then she would have been persecuted, isolated and mocked by the enemies of the Faith. She would never have been allowed to get close to the Pope at any time. Hence, she had to suffer the New Mass, on occasion at least, in order to fulfil the vocation given her by God. That’s my take on it.
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I have been asked by a gentleman (David) who attended the Conference to put a question to the bloggers. I have given him my own answer, but, still, he wants to hear from the rest of you, so here goes…
Our Lady asks for the Consecration of Russia, and promises that Russia will then be converted. But what if the Russian people don’t want to be converted?
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Athanasius
Thank you.
That was explained very well!
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editor
It’s a strange question David asks. I don’t suppose conversion is something that many Russians really give much thought to one way or the other. Decades of atheism in that nation have robbed many souls of any religious sense and so I really don’t think the majority weigh the pros and cons of conversion. They just live in religious indifference.
But even if they were to object, they would do so out of ignorance. Our Lady promises with this consecration to win for them the mercy of God. Only when this is achieved will they realise that they were previously under the servitude of the devil and will be thankful to God and Our Lady for the grace of conversion and the grace to see how blind they were in their previous objection.
The classic case of what conversion does for the soul is witnessed in the conversion of St. Paul, who, as Saul, persecuted the early Church and even participated in the martyrdom of St. Stephen, the first martyr (protomartyr). What would he have said if St. Stephen had asked him beforehand if he would like to be converted to Catholicism? Exactly!
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David’s question about Russia almost makes its conversion into some kind of democratic process, subject to popular vote. But this is a supernatural event which will remove the scales of rebellion and sin from hearts, minds, and eyes. And perhaps the universal devastation referred to in the Third Secret will also bring Russia to her knees. As we learned from Ebenezer Scrooge, nothing so induces a man to prayer and repentance as to face his own tombstone.
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I thought it a very strange question as well. In all the years that there has been talk about ‘the conversion of Russia’ and the consecration of Russia to the Immacculate heart of Mary it has never occurred to me that the will of the Russian people in the matter had the slightest relevance. Of it’s very nature, conversion of anyone is usually prayed for without their knowledge or consent. It’s like the good Friday prayer for the Jews. The Jewish people make a very big issue of it because they don’t want to be converted. We nevertheless pray for their conversion, and will continue to do so, because that is what Our Lord wants and what good Catholics who are following the Master do. Similarly, Our Lady wishes us to pray for the conversion of Russia, which we have been doing throughout my lifetime after every low Mass, and for its consecration, for which we must pray with redoubled efforts now that Frs. Gruner and Kramer have opened our eyes wide to the dreadful alternative.
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Immaculate even.
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Sounds like an incredible experience and I so wish I could have been there. But, us poor students….. Did many Scottish priests attend? I certainly know a few did but I just wondered.
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Could it be another Damascus-like conversion as Athanasius has suggested, but on a bigger scale?
Nothing is beyond the power of God and I firmly believe this will occur by supernatural grace once the consecration has been properly offered.
We must all encourage others to sign up to the Rosary intention and a Promise Form which can be submitted on line (for those new comers who have not already seen it) can be completed here:
http://www.latin-mass.org.uk/page_rosary_promise.htm
Please circulate the link.
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Intriobo,
Thank you for the link! I love reading books so I would like to create a library of them. Yes, part of the talks were a bit frightening but it is the truth.
God Bless
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Fr Kramer recommended a book during the conference called “The Art of War” by Sun Tzu.
I found a free e-book download on the ‘Net so I offer this link if anyone wishes to follow it up – just select the format in which you wish to receive it and click on the “Download” button near the top of the right hand column.
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Nuala, not a lot of Scots priests attended but I would ask bloggers not to name any of the priests at all who attended to avoid them being persecuted in their dioceses. Priests may attend the Gonzaga Lectures and other events promoting heresy and dissent, but to attend a Fatima Conference? No way.
The following link leads to a report on the apparently imminent Vatican/SSPX talks and since these are clearly tied up in the message of Fatima, this is the appropriate thread for any comments.
leprechaun, many thanks for posting the link to the book recommended by Fr Kramer.
I am interested that the responses to David’s question are the same as mine: that God’s grace will take effect and bring about the conversion of Russia. Nothing to do with what the people “want” or think they want.
Graces changes us. That is the key point and why it is so important to pray for that grace of conversion. -
editor
Thank for the link reporting the imminence of talks between the Holy See and the SSPX. I think Cardinal Schonborn of Vienna has a bit of a nerve considering that he houses a good many clerical heretical and immoral clerics under his roof, but it will be interesting to see what comes of these talks.
The SSPX is not there to be bullied by these modernists, so they need not bother trying to force Bishop Fellay into a compromise over that woeful Council. It simply will not happen.
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leprechaun
Thanks for the link to Sun Tzu’s ‘Art of War.’ That will make some interesting reading.
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Perhaps someone with Bishop Fellay’s e-mail address could forward to him the above link (Leprechaun today at 1.12pm) to “The Art of War” for use when he sits down to explain why Tradition cannot embrace False Ecumenism.
Any takers?
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leprechaun
Your word is my command. It’s already on its way to Bishop Fellay.
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lep
WOW! How does it feel to have your own genie?
Don’t forget Wishes 2 and 3…..
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Torkay
Go to the doghouse and don’t pass go!!
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Athanasius is one genie I shall not be trying to put back in the bottle!
Wish 2 is that he could be a fly on the wall at the talks, and wish 3 is that Pope Benedict XVI will personally see that Bishop Fellay’s points are acknowledged as Truth and are executed promptly.
Thank you, Athanasius.
Thank you Tomas – I’ll stop off by the Doghouse and pass the time of day with you.
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Editor, have you given Athanasius the keys to the Apostolic Doghouse Succession?
Ath – before I slink off to the doghouse, how about some lively dialogue first?
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leprechaun
Thanks, I’ll put on the coffee pot, or whatever beverage it is that we dogs drink….er, lap….
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Speaking of those talks, I wonder if there will be “leaks” if certain obstacles arise, and which side will be the source of those leaks…..
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Steady lads. If Madame Editor decides we have gone off topic, I fear her rolling pin will be in action and there may be some overcrowding in that dog house.
To save my cowardly skin, perhaps I had better report, for the benefit of those bloggers from Southern England who were unable to get to the Conference last Saturday, that Fr Grüner will be giving talks on Fatima at St. Michael’s School, Burghclere, at 1.00pm on Saturday 19th September and also at St. Joseph’s Hall, Saltersgate Road, Holloway at 1.00pm on Sunday 20th September.
After which Fr Grüner will be returning to Canada. Seize the opportunity!
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leprechaun
Very interesting that Fr. Gruner is making full use of his visit to the Isles. Would you happen to know who is hosting him at those two locations? Whoever they are, perhaps they are natural allies of CT?
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Torkay,
St. Michael’s School is a private school run by the SSPX, and St. Joseph’s Hall is connected to Ss. Joseph & Padarn Church in north London, also administered by the SSPX. I’d guess that Fr. Gruner will be staying at the Society’s priory in London during his time in England.
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Editor,
Latest on the talks follows:
“The first meeting, which will mark the beginning of the dialogue with the Lefebvrists, will take place in the second half of October,” Father Federico Lombardi, spokesman of Pope Benedict XVI, said [today].
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Introibo
Thanks, I should have known!
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It’s just a pity Fr Lombardi doesn’t realize that there is no such thing as ‘Lefebvrists’. It’s a bit like calling members of Opus Dei ‘Escrivites’. Madness.
Benedict, what do you make of the concealment of the Third Secret and the fact that it warns of the evil council and the dangers of changing the Mass?
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Wrong, leprechaun. After that, Fr Gruner will be returning to Scotland! He’s flying home to Canada from here, Sassenachs eat your hearts out!
Torkay, I took the liberty of removing the “S” (for ‘Scotland’) from your query about the “natural allies of CTS” because, in fact, as I had meant to have pointed out on Saturday but forgot, the name of our publication is Catholic Truth. Our website address is http://www.catholictruthscotland.com but only because of the problems caused when we had to move to a different webhost and decided to switch from our co.uk address to a .com address. Long story, covered in an edition of the newsletter at the time. So, because of the design of our logo to include the website address, people seem to think we are called “Catholic Truth Scotland” – not so. And it is increasingly important that people realise this, because we are being asked to report on other places, most recently Ireland as well as various parts of England. We will always, of course, focus primarily on Scotland (Bishops take note) but we do report on other parts of the UK and hope to carry a report on the state of the Church in Ireland very soon.
We are planning to send a copy of the DVD “The Secret Still Silenced” to every Scottish Bishop very soon, and maybe some of you who live down south could organise same for the Bishops of England and Wales? Father Gruner will have the DVD’s with him at the talks he is giving down south.
Over to you!
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Editor
Point well made, and which allows you a global scope as it were. So I guess I should stop referring to myself as “Catholic Truth Cincinnati”?
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Petrus
Good point about “Lefebvrists!” But for now I’d take that over “ultra-traditionalists” or “fascists.”
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What a wonderful conference on Fatima in Glasgow on Saturday.
Its a pity at such conferences there is never an opportunity or time to really explore and go into detail on some of the topics discussed.
for example: Fr. Kramer says that in the Third Secret Our Lady talks about “an evil council” Now The Holy Father has read the secret. Why therefore has he on many occasions told us to be faithful to the council. And why must the SSPX be forced into talks with the Vatican on discussions on this “evil council” If it is an evil council as Our Lady tells us then why should we be faithful to it.
Benedict has never come out publicly and condemned this evil Council !!Father Malachi Martin SJ, on the Art Bell show in America tells us he has read the secret and that it is our worst nightmare multiplied a thousand times.
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N O T I C E . . .
I’ve had two emails from people saying they cannot vote in the website poll. I’ve re-posted it and it let me vote but another email has come in to complain that they cannot vote. If any of your cannot vote, will you email me – not for discussion here, just fire off an email with “Can’t Vote” in the subject field. I am going offline for a while now, but will be reporting this to the server and normal service will be resumed as and when, so be patient.
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Irish Catholic, welcome to our blog and thank you for your first post.
However, I don’t think you are being fair in saying there was no time to explore in detail. There were three Question & Answer sessions and the Chairman allowed plenty of opportunities for people to speak. The question you posed was not found among the written questions or it would have been selected at the Plenary. So, be fair. You could have asked this question on the day and I wish you had.
The answer, re. the Pope, which springs to my mind is that he is surrounded by Freemasons – this is a fact. And the clues are there: notice how quickly Cardinal Bertone races to contradict and undermine the Pope as he has done on the matter of the Motu Proprio, Medjugorje and the so called “reform of the reform”.
The Pope – as was pointed out on Saturday – knows he is surrounded by enemies so, although it is not an excuse for continuing to peddle the lie that the Council was the best thing since sliced bread, it IS a reason – perhaps – why he does so.
Anyway, a renewed welcome, Irish Catholic – and please, do keep blogging with us – we need you!
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IRISH CATHOLIC
Fr. Kramer did, in fact, touch on this topic. He said that Pope Benedict XVI knows full well that the Council is referred to in the Third Secret as an “evil Council” and that is why he is preoccupied with addressing many of its inconsistencies. It is also the reason why he wants talks with the SSPX.
According to Fr. Kramer, and this is perfectly plausible, Pope Benedict is not wholly convinced about the content of the Third Secret, partly due to the nasty interference of Fr. Dhanis and partly due to his own flawed modernist attachments, but he does have a good will and he knows there are serious problems in the Church emanating from the Council. That’s why he stated that it was not a “superdogma.”
It is very interesting to me that every time these talks between the Holy See and the SSPX are mentioned in public, these modernist Cardinals, such as Cardinal Bertone and Cardinal Schonborn of Vienna, are there like a shot reminding everyone that the SSPX must accept Vatican II.
Nonsense, the whole procedure is about rectifying the flawed documents of Vatican II and getting rid of some outrightly heretical propositions. It would be better if the whole Council could be scrapped and re-done, but the reality is that it will simply have to be cleansed of its many errors and brought into line with Trent. This is what the SSPX intends. I believe this is what Pope Benedict intends. I think this is what will happen.
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Petrus
This term “Lefebvrists,” used by Fr. Lombardi and others in the Church, to their shame, is intended to discredit the SSPX. They hope that by using such terms they can subliminally implant the notion of the SSPX as a cult in the minds of Catholics. It’s a disgraceful tactic, one worthy of Satan himself.
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Pope Benedict certainly needs our prayers at this time
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gloria
You’re absolutely right and that’s why the SSPX has raised a crusade to gather 12 million rosaries for the Holy Father.
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Petrus,
Don’t worry about names and titles such as Lefebvrists; just follow the old adage of “sticks and stones can …..”
With respect to your question on my belief I have to say that I don’t know. Perhaps if I had attended last weekend’s bash I would be in a better position to speak about the third secret but that is just if and buts now I’m afraid.
Let me ask you guys whether the link given below may/can/does has a bearing on the subject:-
http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2009/09/daily-news-is-catholic-orthodox-unity.html
Yes, pray, pray pray for our beloved Pope Benedict. The wolves continue to circle waiting an opportunity not only to snap at his ankles but to go for the jugular vein.
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Benedict
That’s a very intriguing article, and lifted from the National Catholic Register no less. I hope Abp. Pezzi is not jumping the gun and being foolishly optimistic.
Is there any hint in the Third Secret of this reunification?
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Ath
I remember that during the Papal Conclave in 2005 this Cardinal Schonborn was listed as a major papal candidate, and touted as a conservative at that. How do you suppose he got that reputation? I keep thinking of his role in the recent Austrian protests over that bishop appointment (whose name I forget).
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Benedict
I smell a rat with that article! Could it be that the Russians are attempting to throw the Pope off kilter with a proposed reunification between Catholics and the Orthodox just when the SSPX are raising 12 million rosaries for the consecration of Russia to Our Lady’s Immaculate Heart?
I’m suspicious! Fr. Gruner told us at the conference that he has it on good authority that the Pope has secretly asked the Russian Orthodox if they would object to him consecrating their country to Our Lady. Is this the Russian’s way of pretending that no consecration is necessary? I wonder?
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Cardinal Schonborn’s breathtakingly impudent statement that ‘fundamental conclusions’ of Vat.II, namely ‘..its position on Judaism, other non-Christian religions, other Christian churches.. are ‘not negotiable’ is nothing less than a great rallying call to the legions that are massing to oppose the talks. As was seen in the debacle of the attempt of the SSPX to buy a church in Manchester, Vat.II is the sacred cow of the Jews and the ecumenists, and their opposition to every stage of the talks (pray that there are no ‘leaks’) will show diabolic rage at its fiercest. The talks will get nowhere without miraculous intervention. The SSPX rosary crusade is so important at this stage, for without it I don’t believe that anything will be achieved, regardless of the good intentions of Pope Benedict and Bishop Fellay.
Does anyone know how these talks will work? Will there be many others present in an ‘advisory’ or recording capacity. If so, how much danger is there that a Vatican Freemason or two will manage to be included?
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Yes, Athanasius, I smell a rat with that article too. How convenient it would be if the reconciliation process were to get underway as a means of putting the consecration on diplomatic hold. I somehow don’t think the Holy Father will fall for it but one thing is certain and that is, all those nasty little masons in the Vatican will be scuttling all over the place trying to scupper it.
On another note, I heard from a friend today that lots of people are planning to go to Fr. Gruner’s talks both at St. Joseph’s and at St. Michael’s school. His UK visit will certainly have not been in vain. What a hard-working priest and when I think of all those lazy ones who take days off! Can you imagine a father or mother saying to the children: Tomorrow is my day off. Fend for yourselves. I’ve even heard that many of these “part time” priests don’t even say Mass on their “days off”. Cure D’Ars, are you turning in your grave?
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Don’t you think the Vatican could handle both initiatives at once? They are not committing very much manpower to the SSPX talks.
That said, it wouldn’t surprise me in the least to learn that this was a diplomatic move to distract the SSPX talks. If the Bishop Williamson affair didn’t stop them, then perhaps something more subtle…but if both initiatives were to proceed at once, I still don’t see that as a problem. Orthodox reunification would certainly eclipse the SSPX talks in terms of publicity, but those talks are not going to proceed with much publicity anyway, if any at all.
That is, unless the Orthodox negotiations were designed to somehow destroy the Pope’s credibility.
Let’s pray for Benedict’s ability to excel at chess……supernatural chess…
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Torkay, are you saying that you think the SSPX talks won’t attract much publicity (she said in a high, squeaky, incredulous voice)?
Believe you me, the Orthodox talks won’t get a look-in locally in the UK compared to the SSPX talks. The Ecumaniacs and certain Jewish groups are ready to pounce.
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Naomi Soprano
I was thinking the SSPX talks would be a very private (and probably rather boring) affair, said privacy to be enforced by both sides out of their mutual interest. I doubt whether any loose cannons will go running off to the press like out-of-control Vatican II peritii, if things hit a roadblock. If these negotiations turn into a media circus, they are doomed – so I would think it would be of the utmost importance to both the Pope and to the SSPX to keep them private.
But, unlike Editor, I could be wrong….
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Hope you’re not, Torkay – hope you’re not indeed!
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I pray that the talks between the Curia and SSPX go well and that both sides come out with an agreeable solution to the problems. The Church needs the SSPX. I do however have some grave concerns.
I have read the attacks of Father Morgan against the Sons of the Holy Redeemer (transalpine’s) and his defence of Bishop Williamson. The Monks on Papa Stronsay have asked Holy Mother Church to welcome them back, accepting that the Motu Proprio has given them the right to sacrifice the holy Mass according to the norms of the 1962 missal. Fr Morgans repeated attacks on this community are none other than victimisation; I would say that Fr Morgan should take the advice of his superior and let this community deal with their own divide. It was after all Bishop Fellay who pointed out, and rightly so that the society would deal with Bishop Williamson and not the wider consensus that would decide his fate.
I agree that Bishop Williamson was a victim in what can only be described as a great campaign of hate against himself and the SSPX; however his denial of the Holocaust is unacceptable; I do not however see any censorship of the Bishop. Fr. Morgan defends him time and time again and yet is quick to denounce those who disagree with him ‘caritas Christus urget nos’.
If Bishop Williamson has been censured under cannon 27 why then is he still permitted to blog and preach?I think that the SSPX has to start to fix the windows and doors of its own house, allow the talks with Rome to go ahead and accept what their superiors have in prayerful reflection decided for them rather than adhering to the ’schismatic’ label that the liberals like to attach to them! If not, I can only see a split within a split!
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Savio
I don’t think your criticisms of Father Morgan are just. First of all, the community in Papa Stronsay haven’t exactly been blameless. Indeed, Father Michael Mary has repeatedly questioned the validity of the Society’s Confessions and Marriages! Crazy stuff. The monks, like the FSSP, have compromised on the Faith in order to secure the Mass. From what I’ve heard, they were quite sneaky about their reintegration into the Modern Church and didn’t even discuss it with the SSPX, whom they had had an extremely close relationship with. So let’s not try and label Father Morgan as some sort of bully.
Now to the case of Bishop Williamson. I’m a huge fan of His Excellency. Yes, his remarks were incredibly stupid, but let’s not make more of it than we have to. He didn’t deny an article of faith. He is entitled to his opinion regarding the Holocaust. I think the SSPX handled the situation well. Why is he allowed to blog? I can only imagine the SSPX don’t seek to own every part of Richard Williamson and control him 100% of the time. As far as I am aware he hasn’t been preaching, or ministering in public.
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For the record, Bp Williamson didn’t deny the holocaust, merely questioned the numbers. Frankly, I’m sick and tired of hearing about the holocaust and as one newspaper editor said, if Bp Williamson had queried the numbers who died in the Irish Potato Famine, we’d never have heard about it.
And there will be, in any case, “a split within a split” when, hopefully, the nutters with extremist views on just about every aspect of life you care to name, who do untold damage to the SSPX cause, will go their own sorry way.
Now, returning to the thread topic, I have to ask how many of you have viewed the DVD “The Secret Still Silenced” which would have been on sale at the Conference had they not been late in arriving? It is superb! Among those speaking on the film are Father Gruner, Father Kramer, Christopher Ferrara and other well known Catholic lay people. We’ll be advertising it for sale in the November edition but anyone who wishes to buy a copy before then, watch this space. Once I’ve checked costs with the Post Office, I’ll let you know.
It is absolutely terrific. You MUST see it! And not just Catholics – as one of the speakers says towards the end, the Fatima message is for everyone; for which of us wants to see our own nation annihilated?
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Editor
Well said.
Sorry, I didn’t see that DVD at the Conference. I thought Fr Gruner said he would send some over. I did get ‘Heaven’s Key To Peace’ right enough.
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Petrus, they arrived on Sunday – too late for the Conference, unfortunately – so Father gave me some boxes that I could advertise the DVD in the November edition.
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Savio
Fr. Morgan and I have not exactly seen eye to eye on many things in the past, but on this occasion, as with his staunch defence of the SSPX in the face of persecution over the church purchase in Manchester, I wholeheartedly support him.
The Sons of the Most Holy Redeemer, like it or not, compromised their brothers in tradition (the SSPX) when they returned to Rome before having resolved the many doctrinal issues that continue to place the Faith of Catholics in grave danger.
I have exchanged correspondence with Fr. Michael Mary on this very subject and, although we exchanged amicably, it seems to me that the he has failed to justify such a rash move.
The Sons of the Most Holy Redeemer claim to have responded to a call for unity from the Holy Father, yet it is a fact that the Catholic hierarchy remains generally hostile to tradition and regularly voices its determination that Vatican II and the New Mass must stand.
In other words, this call of the Holy Father should have marked but the beginning of negotiations for reconciliation, which was Bishop Fellay’s response, not an immediate, unconditional surrender.
Catholic doctrine is every bit as important as the liturgy. The former Redemptorists had a duty before God to insist on the correction of both before making deals. After all, it is one thing that they might be promised a fairly uninterrupted life of tradition on their wee island, but what about the traditional faithful who would be forced to enter parishes controlled by anti-tradition bishops?
There was definitely a selfish end in their choice and many traditional Catholics, who, remember, built Papa Stronsay up into a monastery with their own hard earned cash and supported these monks through hard times, feel betrayed by them.
Not content with having returned prematurely to Rome and left their traditional brothers in the priesthood to fight it out alone, they now claim that SSPX marriages and confessions are invalid. Yet they operated under the same “case of necessity” for twenty years when it suited them. No wonder Fr. Morgan is annoyed! I’m annoyed!
As for Bishop Williamson. I’m actually beginning to feel a bit sorry for him and I feel my anger against the Zionists rising as a result of their determination to use his remarks to attack traditional Catholicism.
Don’t you believe for one minute that these people care about Bishop Williamson’s silly remarks about the Holocaust. They see it as a free ticket to abuse traditional Catholics and that’s why Bishop Fellay has told them in no uncertain terms to get their noses out of Catholic business.
I was witness to the appalling persecution unleashed on the SSPX in Britain under the pretext of Bishop Williamson’s views. This wasn’t natural outrage of one man’s views, but hatred of the traditional Catholic Faith pure and simple. It is a hatred exemplified in the hypocrisy of the Anglican church’s refusal to sell a church to the SSPX in Manchester.
By the way, despite the inappropriateness of Bishop Williamson’s Holocaust remarks, and their historically unfounded nature, he is not under any censure by the Church. Nor could he be, for he spoke on an historical matter and at no time expressed hatred for the Jews, which would have constituted a sin against charity. Regardless of what we think of his point of view, therefore, or his personal judgments in other matters, we have to accept that he did not speak out of hatred for the Jewish people. He said as much, and we must accept that.
I’m not the greatest fan of Bishop Williamson. I think he is way too political and way too conspiratorial for a Catholic Bishop. I think his harsh nature was a bad influence on seminarians, which resulted in more Jansenist priests than Catholic priests being produced from the seminary he rectored, and I think that while he wrote some really good Catholic stuff, he also wrote some appalling trash. So I’m not his number one fan.
However, I do like to think I’m objective in my judgments and my judgment on this present Holocaust business is that it has been blown out of all proportion by the Zionists and Bishop Williamson is as much a victim of the fall out from that as the rest of us.
It says something of the present “free” society we live that a Bishop of the Roman Catholic Church is consistently hounded into obscurity, not only by Zionist activists such as Abe Foxman and his Masonic Anti-Defamation League, but also by Catholics, including prelates in Rome, over an historical view that boils down to just his flawed opinion. He was hardly agitating for a Fourth Reich.
It also says something that the SSPX is viewed so unjustly as a partner in crime and equally hounded. This is not a normal reaction. This is hatred of traditional Catholicism disguised behind a convenient pretext.
So now you have my take on matters.
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NOTICE
I’ve just posted an update on the Kennedy Funeral thread. Be there or be square!
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Petrus,
I put your last post concerning the Sons of the Most Holy Redeemer down to your current mental state of imminent fatherhood as I found it rather bold and harsh whilst displaying a lack of factually researched substance. Fr Michael Mary is quite within his rights to question the SSPX’s validity in confessions etc. Similarly your “huge fan of Bp Williamson” statement shows a certain lack of discernment. Athanasius on the other hand gave a very full and rational explanation with his usual literary skills par excellence.
My personal opinion is that irrespective of what others think the community on Papa Stronsay took a decision as a community to regain full canonical status and recognition. I cannot believe that they did so without much soul searching, prayer, discussion and aid from many quarters (both for and against). With this in mind we must respect their majority decision to become a Catholic fraternity irrespective as to whether one believes they were right or wrong.
Neither do I think they compromised anything, including “leaving” their brothers in tradition. On the contrary, some might say they were leading their brothers in being a test case in how societies and congregations would be received. Look at the position we are in now with the beginning of talks in October between the Vatican and the SSPX. Who knows what politics have gone on during the past two years. Did Bp Fellay decry, ridicule or damn the decision of Fr Michael Mary and his community?
I too truly wish the society would be given fair treatment by all especially by certain prelates within the Church. The world’s media and, let me call them certain non Catholic groups, I’m afraid have been given a bone and they will not leave it until it has been gnawed to their satisfaction. Perhaps it would have been better had he retired some months ago if only to mitigate the ongoing nonsense. A suitable gift of reparation some might think.
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Benedict, it’s a bit late in the day for Fr Michael Mary to start questioning the validity of the SSPX sacraments – see a good synopsis on the subject here http://www.catholicintl.com/catholicissues/sspxnis.pdf
And as for Fr Michael Mary and those (by no means all) in the community who followed him, being a “test case in how societies and congregations are received” – you are, I presume, joking?
Look at the Fraternity of St Peter, the Campos experiment and goodness knows how many other “Traditional” societies/congregations/Orders now ensnared into saying the novus ordo.
No, I think Bishop Fellay can be trusted not to weakly agree to some “deal” that will see him embracing Modernism at any level.
By the way; didn’t you give me the impression you would be at the Conference? When I sent a round robin about arrangements for Friday at Fazzis? What, as they say, was THAT all about?
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Benedict
Apart from the monks on Papa Stronsay, I ask myself how many of the estimated one million traditional Catholics worldwide benefited from that hasty reconciliation with Rome. I cannot think of any.
As for the Redemptorists themselves. Were they suddenly welcomed as prodigals by the hierarchy? No. Where they given free reign to celebrate Mass outside of their island and permitted to bring the traditional doctrine to the faithful? No.
Were they, and are they, permitted by their local ordinary to speak of the errors present in the New Mass, never mind the associated abuses? No.
Indeed, are they free to preach traditional Catholicism pure and simple? No.
The Pope offered them the old Mass and the old practices for their island, for their monastic order, but they are restricted from taking that traditional belief and practice into the parishes. The bishop calls this normalisation. I call it imprisonment. The monks on Papa Stronsay, despite the good will of the Holy Father, are now separated and isolated from the battle for the Faith.
Yes, they can now claim to be ‘in good standing’ with the modernists and they can claim to have validity in the exercise of their restricted ministry, but what about the New Mass, the faulty doctrine and the countless liturgical and sacramental abuses everywhere present in the Church that they are now powerless to preach against upon peril of their ‘good standing?’
We have to understand that while Pope Benedict XVI certainly wants some balance back in the Church, some tradition as a counter-balance against this tide of liberalism that has spread like a cancer, he is NOT a fully convinced traditionalist and he does not have the support of the prelates who count.
These will, as we have already witnessed, resist his every move in favour of tradition, most likely at diocessan level, and this Pope is not strong enough to stand up against them. Perhaps the 12 million rosaries will win that strength for him in the near future. In the meantime, however, we must be careful not to jump into deep water on the basis of papal good will.
The papal good will that I want to see is of the Pope celebrating the Tridentine Mass himself, admitting to serious errors in the documents of Vatican II and taking action against the truly rebellious prelates with schismatic mentality who challenge his authority every day, but who are never brought to book for it. Indeed, some of these prelates preach heresy without censure.
When I see what passes today for Catholicism in every parish of every diocese in the world, I have to wonder just exactly who these people are ‘in good standing’ with. It is certainly not with Our Lord and the Popes of old.
The Conciliar bishops, with no little help from the Conciliar Popes, have made of our once-divinely honest Faith, a Tower of Babel so that no two Catholics think the same way, pray the same way, believe in the same dogmas or even have a grasp of the fundamental doctrines of the Catholic religion.
And they dare to say that the SSPX has the schismatic mentality, which institution has resolutely refused to join them in this transformation from doctrinal honesty to ecumenical double-speak.
If the SSPX is not ‘in good standing’ today, then 1,950 years of Catholicism is out of good standing along with them. His Holiness has to realise that the buck stops with the modern papacy and hierarchy of the Church. These created the present crisis in the Faith through their tinkering with novelties and their flagrant disregard for the teaching of the entire magisterium up to the Council.
Who, I wonder, invested these Conciliar popes and prelates with the authority to alter the sacred deposit of Faith handed down to them? Who authorised them to create a New Mass, or, as Cardinal Ratzinger referred to it, “a banal, on the spot, liturgical fabrication”? Who authorised them to authorise lay ministries that would result in countless abuses against the Blessed Sacrament? Who authorised them to cease preaching Jesus Christ crucified to non-Christians and to cease preaching extra ecclesia nulla salus to non-Catholic Christians? Who authorised Pope Paul VI to give away the papal tiara, his Fisherman’s ring and his crosier, the latter two to a Bhuddhist? Who authorised Pope John Paul II to arrange a syncretist meeting of religions at Assisi, to kiss the Koran and to receive the mark of a Hindu Goddess on his forehead? Who authorised permission to the rector of the shrine of Our Lady of Fatima to allow Hindus to worship there? Who authorised churches everwhere to be stripped of their Catholic beauty, and often their tabernacles?
I could go on and on all night, but I think I make my point when it comes to the virtue of religious obedience. Is the SSPX disobedient because it resisted Popes in these matters? Are we Catholics free in Christ Jesus Our Lord, or are we slaves to the whims of Popes and prelates under a form of obedience hitherto unheard of in the Church?
The SSPX has NEVER had the schismatic mentality. It seeks to obey the Holy Father in all that does not contradict the sacred deposit of Faith. Hence, It is to the revolutionaries of Vatican II that we must look if we would find the disobedient and the schismatic, for it is the new religion that emanated from that Council which is in schism with the Church’s past.
Bishop Fellay enters these talks with the Holy See with only one aim in mind, which is to bring this reality once more to the attention of the Church’s authorities. He has not the slightest interest in self preservation for himself or the SSPX, nor of acquiring a ‘good standing’ award through compromise with any aspect of the traditional Catholic Faith.
His aim is to convince the authorities of the Church that they must act to eradicate the cause of this crisis of Faith by fully restoring sacred tradition in belief, in practice and in preaching.
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N O T I C E . . .
As intimated on our website homepage, there will be a Traditional Mass in the Sacred Heart, 50 Old Dalmarnock Road, Bridgeton, Glasgow at 12 noon on Saturday, 19th September, in thanksgiving for the success of our Conference and to pray for many graces for all those who attended and for their intentions.
I hope as many of you will attend as possible.
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Athanasius,
Thank you for your response. I shall try to steer away from the rhetoric in your reply and look at the meat.
I asked a couple of questions in my post but I did not see any reference to them in the way of answers; perhaps you would care to address them in your next response.
You have made numerous assumptions on behalf of the community. Where is the factual evidence to back this up? It may be of interest to you that I had the opportunity to speak with a brother in Heathrow Airport last month (he was returning from a pilgrimage to the Holy Land). The question of offeringthe Sacrifice of the Mass outside the community came up and his response was very positive. Now that I have a small break in my schedule it is my intention to write to Fr Michael Mary with this in mind.
The community have now received full faculties within the diocese and may now celebrate Mass anywhere within the diocese only requiring the permission of the Parish Priest as is the norm. My PP has agreed we can offer Mass in the Usus Antiquior on any Saturday in our Chapel (the Bishop is aware of this), so another hurdle is passed.
Have you recently stayed at Papa Stronsay to listen to any of their sermons and teachings? If not how do you know what they preach, study and live out their vocation?
I too can go on all day but you get my drift. All I am really saying is that to make broad sweeping condemnation of a community who made a decision you don’t like is plain uncharitable an unworthy of your intellect.
Editor,
My response to you concerning that Friday evening was for the edification of guests outside Glasgow who were intending to join you. Just being a good neighbour. I notified you about my schedule a month ago. Oh, and my eldest son’s wedding was great thanks for asking.
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Benedict
You wrote quite a bit in that last post, but you said nothing new. I’ll answer your questions one paragraph at a time.
I make no assumptions about the Redemptorists, nor do I judge their intentions. I merely state the obvious which is that a compromise with Rome was reached. The Redemptorists have the Mass on their island and they’re allowed to live their traditional monastic life, but they have had to surrender any opposition to the New Mass and to the doctrinal errors that followed Vatican II. They are also silenced on abuses of the Blessed Sacrament within their diocese.
There is nothing positive about the Redemptorists offering Mass on Saturdays in your parish church or any other. Come back to me when they are allowed to offer Sunday Mass in the true rite and I’ll agree that progress has been made.
As for their sermons and preaching. I’m perfectly certain that it is traditional. The problem is they don’t get to preach tradition in the parishes of the diocese.
I made no condemnation of anyone. I merely stated the obvious which, again, is that a compromise was reached between the Redemptorists and the Holy See. The consequences are that they are now isolated on that island and answerable to a bishop who is no friend of tradition. Furthermore, they have accepted the legitimacy of the Novus Ordo and are quite content to leave the opposition to very serious doctrinal issues arising from Vatican II to others. They made a very great mistake in believing that Pope Benedict’s motu proprio signalled an end to the ’state of necessity’ in the Church. In reality, however, the pope’s motu proprio is but the beginning of a long road of negotiations. There is still a very hostile hierarchy to consider.
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Benedict and Athanasius,
Thank you for some interesting posts. I have learned a lot from you both. I am still of the opinion that the Transalpine’s did what was best for them and their community. I understand that they entered into discussion with regards to the validity of marriages etc performed by the SSPX, which might in hindsight seem a little hypocritical of the society. I think that it is best if both Fr Michael Mary and Fr Morgan stop the theological ping pong and started to pray for each other; they were after all very good friends at one time. “How many times must I forgive my brother?”
Petrus, I thank God for the safe arrival of your son. I am disappointed however by your lack of judgement with regards to +Williamson; I am inclined to agree with Athanasius’ opinion of him. I agree that the Zionist lobby has far too much influence over many aspects of life and their determination to exploit the holocaust as a solely ‘Jewish’ genocide is in my opinion just as bad as denial of the holocaust. They forget the numerous victims’ of other faiths who died as a result of the National Socialists. The Editor is correct in her comments with regards to the Great Famine.
I pray that the talks with the SSPX go well and that a peaceful reconciliatory solution is found. Change is painful for all, we only have to look to the disaster of Vatican II and its destruction of tradition, to know that not everyone will be pleased and there will no doubt be anger at concessions on both sides.
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Benedict, since nobody but myself read your email about Friday at Fazzi’s, I fail to understand why you think your message edified the visitors. But let that pass. Glad your son’s wedding was “great”. Sorry for not remembering to ask – what, with one thing and a thousand, it slipped my mind.
Savio, “hypocritical” – maybe; ridiculous, certainly, to query the validity of SSPX marriages (or any other sacrament) since there has never been any sign of the Vatican insisting on “conditional” sacraments with “reconciled” groups such as Campos, the (falsely accused of schism) Hawaii Six or – presuming they were “guilty” of officiating at marriages – the Transalpines.
Benedict, are you quite happy that Fr Michael Mary et al now accept the novus ordo & all that goes with it?
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As I felt there were more eminent theologians and speakers than me, I didn’t ask the following question:
In the light of the of the Fatima revelation, what did the panel, Conference attenders and bloggers think as regards to the liturgical abuses with the overuse of Permanent Deacons, which I personally think is to force the end of celibacy therefore, these men I feel want the best of both worlds – marriage and the priesthood! A bit like the breakfast they don’t want commitment as the pig is committed and the hen is only involved (Bacon and Egg) .
Also the same as with extraordinary ministers of the Eucharist, when altar girls in the beginning were illicit and deemed irregular and now become the norm also!
Editor, it is good that so many of your bloggers are joining in the SSPX Rosary Crusade and the wonderful rapport that your Priest Panel had towards the SSPX Priests! A great and informative Conference!
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Welcome to our blog, jarra lad! It was great to meet you on Saturday and thank you a million times over for organising that wonderful busload from Newcastle. God bless you!
Thank you, too, for your first, very good post. I do wish you had asked your questions at the Conference, though, not least since it took place in the heart of Permanent Deacon Land. Archbishop Conti, ever since his days as Bishop of Aberdeen, has promoted permanent deacons with scarcely a whisper about priestly vocations. Go figure, as our Torkay would say.
I absolutely believe that this extensive use of permanent married deacons is, indeed intended to undermine the celibate priesthood. Without a shadow of a doubt, it is seen as a way of softening us up to accept married priests. Won’t happen, of course, but that is, I am certain, the purpose of this ploy to extend the use of permanent deacons, who are about as much use as an cloth umbrella in Manchester since they can neither confect the Eucharist nor hear confessions. On my death bed and yours, a permanent deacon will be as welcome (and as much use) as the schismatic Archbishop of Canterbury.
Again, jarra lad, a renewed welcome – do, please, keep blogging with us: we need you!
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jarra lad,
Here is a prime example of one of my worst nightmares. Who is the priest and who are the extraordinary extra-awful, totally heretical, gobsmackly distasteful aargh! ………
http://cathcon.blogspot.com/2009/09/stealth-priestesses-break-cover.html
The following line sung in the Reproaches during the Easter Triidium are fitting here:
“My people what have I done to you, how have I offended you, answer me.”
Editor,
Archbishop Conti is but kindergarden compared to Cardinal Scheonborn, that so wonderful leader of Catholic Austria – not!
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Ed,
I agree that +Conti has had a direct impact on the ’stripping’ of the role of the Priest in parish life. I have heard some pretty nasty stories already concerning the wishy washy pantomine heros that have come forward to save the Archdiocese of Glasgow. I am sure it will not be long before we have these deacons living in the now very much vacant presbytery. I know of five different communities all traditional in their outlook who would be willing to move to the archdiocese of Glasgow and one which have expressed an interest in the former Carmelite Priory on Hamilton Avenue.What does it take for the Archbishop to invite these orders to the city? I guess only a change in Hierarchy and if as it is whispered that +Tagli talks a good game from Paisley takes over the Archdoicese has no chance!
It is time that many more agreed to sign up to the Rosary Crusade and pray for the conversion of Scotland and Russia!
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Ed & savio
Someone needs to start circulating a Flying Buttress for Scotland, to put a permanent flat tire on the decadent vehicle of the Scotland Conference.
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Torkay, I think we already have a sort of FBS – it’s called Catholic Truth!
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Savio
First of all, thank you so much for the message of congratulations.
I am always dismayed when bloggers feel the need to “express disappointment” at the personal opinions of others. This is a nonsense. Unlike the Modern Church, there is no “party line” on this blog. Sure, there are things on which we must give our assent, dogmas of the faith etc. but surely we can disagree on other matters without expressing disappointment at each other?
For example, I know Athanasius and I don’t agree on Bishop Williamson. Big deal. Athanasius stated his opinion and I stated mine. We both respect our respective positions. That’s the way it should be. The editor and I have banter back and forward regarding the role of women in society, much of which (on my part) is tongue in cheek. All good, clean, fun. Sometimes we debate these non-essential issues very passionately, and that is all very well and good. But let’s not become self-appointed thought police.
By the way, Savio, I was taught by Salesians and love the Salesian saints. Good choice of blog name.
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Benedict, Sugar Plum, you forgot to answer my question, reproduced here for ease of reference…
…are you quite happy that Fr Michael Mary et al now accept the novus ordo & all that goes with it?
Well?
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Petrus,
Fair comment. I have a great love of the Salesians and of Don Orione at least we agree on our love of great Saints! I shall keep your family in my prayers, I am sure that your home will be blessed with the graces of the baptisimal font and lots of early monrings soon enough.
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jarra lad
Welcome to the blog, mi old Geordie! Did I get that right?
Anyway, good comments from you above. Rather than write out why I agree with you, I have decided to just post this link to my Remnant article of Last month saying precisely what you’ve said. Keep blogging.
http://www.remnantnewspaper.com/Archives/2009-0715-blackshaw-autodemolition_in_the_uk.htm
Petrus
I agree entirely with your comments of 4.42pm and I think Savio does as well. Ah, St. Dominic Savio. A magnificent saint whose life should be held up as an example to every Catholic youngster.
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Editor
I meant satire – makes the “progressives” squirm all the more.
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Torkay, I know you meant “satire” – and thus, I thought it timeous to point out that we have a diluted version of the Flying Buttress satire but over here they call it “tone and style”. They never challenge the content of our reports, just the “tone and style”…
Athanasius, hark at you….”rather than write out my reply I decided to just post this link to my Remnant article”…. ooooooooooooooooooooooooooh!
Signed –
The Green-Eyed Monster…
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Editor,
You wrote (again)
…are you quite happy that Fr Michael Mary et al now accept the novus ordo & all that goes with it?
Belonging to the Church, he and the community have accepted the Church in all its glory, and warts. That is what happens when you fully belong and dont snipe from the wings whilst playing with the petals saying – I love you I love you not…….. Just wait my dearest, just wait.
Athanasius has certainly raised the barrier with that reference to his articles!
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Benedict, clearly, just about every word that has ever been uttered on this blog about Our Lady of Fatima’s warnings, about the status of Vatican II and about the newer, and much fewer, new Mass, have gone right over your (insert adjective) head.
The Church HAS no “warts”. The Church is holy. One, holy, Catholic and apostolic, are the 4 marks of the Church. The Church is holy because Christ is holy; Christ and His Church are one. Nobody would ever have described the traditional Mass as a “wart” and the fact that you can thus describe the new “banal on the spot fabrication” (Cardinal Ratzinger) speaks volumes.
The new Mass is part of the diabolical disorientation about which Our Lady warned at Fatima. You appear not to understand the significance of the Fatima apparitions. Our Lady does not appear for no good reason, apart, it seems, from the Muddygorgy thingy where – day and daily – she thanks us all for responding to her call, in direct contradiction to Our Lady of Fatima who sadly noted in one of her post-1917 apparitions to Lucia, that “even the good” are ignoring her requests. Indeed, the whole significance of Fatima is that, from the highest authority in the Church (Pope) down, we are NOT responding to her call!
When we advertise the DVD ‘The Secret Still Hidden’, I hope you will send for a copy, Benedict, because, if after viewing that astonishing film, you are still able to write the kind of flippant post as that of today at 7pm, intimating that we ought to accept the diabolical disorientation and the new “banal” Mass (Cardinal Ratzinger) as “the Church in all its glory and warts” – I won’t waste another minute of my time and energy discussing anything of moment with you. The fact that Fr Michael Mary HAS been able to accept this diabolical disorientation should cause you much concern; it is not a matter for rejoicing – far from it.
Wakey WAKEY!
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Editor
I was just about to ask you to quit using those 25-cent words, like “timeous,” until I looked it up and found that it’s usage is “chiefly Scot.” Go figure, as Editor would say our Torkay would say…..
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Athanasius
Savio is one of the good guys.
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editor
I have noticed that we have not had many priests on this Fatima thread. Isn’t this precisely the tragedy of all tragedies, e.g, that those who are consecrated to the service of God in the priesthood are, for the most part, the very ones who are snubbing Our Lady’s Message, making light of it and/or rejecting it instead of leading the faithful in obedience to Her heavenly requests. No wonder the Church is in crisis.
Benedict
This from Pius XII. Wakey, wakey! And I address this also to the prelates and priests of the Church.
“I am worried by the Blessed Virgin’s messages to Lucy of Fatima. This persistence of Mary about the dangers which menace the Church is a Divine warning against the suicide of altering the Faith, in Her liturgy, Her theology and Her soul. . . . I hear all around me innovators who wish to dismantle the Sacred Chapel, destroy the universal flame of the Church, reject her ornaments and make her feel remorse for her historical past.
A day will come when the civilized world will deny its God, when the Church will doubt as Peter doubted. She will be tempted to believe that man has become God. In our churches, Christians will search in vain for the red lamp where God awaits them. Like Mary Magdalene, weeping before the empty tomb, they will ask, “Where have they taken Him?” [Roche, Pie XII Devant L'Histoire, pp. 52-53.]
How prophetic are these words of Pius. Everything he warns of has come to pass and still they remain indifferent, or are willing to compromise.
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Editor,
Many thanks for your kind welcome to the blog! To Benedict thanks also, I have read Cathcon, and also to Athanasius I have read your article too!Ed I thought the following article from the Holy Father today may be of interest to your bloggers:
Castel Gandolfo, Italy, Sep 17, 2009 / 10:27 am (CNA).- In an audience this morning with bishops visiting from Brazil, Pope Benedict XVI advised them on how to respond to the lack of priests, emphasizing that the shortage cannot be solved by having lay people substitute for the clergy.
The Holy Father began his address to the Brazilian prelates by pointing out the difference between the identity of priests and the laity. While the lay faithful share in the “common priesthood,” they are not ordained ministers of Christ and His Church. “Hence,” the Pope cautioned, “it is important to avoid the secularization of clergy and the ‘clericalization’ of the laity.” [repetita iuvant]
Fulfilling the lay vocation, he explained, involves working to “give expression in real life – also through political commitment – to the Christian view of anthropology and the social doctrine of the Church.” [anthropology… which must include a Catholic and natural understanding of the dignity of human life applied to that political commitment.]
On the other hand, “priests must distance themselves from politics in order to favor the unity and communion of all the faithful, thus becoming a point of reference for everyone,” Benedict said. [This doesn’t mean that priests and bishops must be silent about the issues. They must not be partisan, in the sense of engaging in party politics. But they must address the moral, ethical, doctrinal implications of social problems and proposed solutions. Also, the only way priests and bishops will be a source of unity is if what they say is consistent with what the Church holds.]
When dioceses are faced with a lack of priests, the Pope emphasized that they should not resort to “a more active and abundant participation of the laity” since it could take away from their own calling. [This is particularly important in the Church’s worship.]
Cheers,
Jarra Lad -
Nice to read this and congratulations to Catholic Truth for this conference.
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i’m a bit confused about all this talk about the Orkney monks accepting the new mass ect.i know they dont because Fr. Michael told me it wasn’t pleasing to Almighty God.why do bloggers think they have?
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Athanasius,
I’m very interested in your comments about the lack of priestly interest in this thread. I’ve noticed that myself and the fact that I intend to make no comment at this tiime, beyond noting what you say and agreeing entirely with your assessment, tells you all you need to know about my feelings on the matter. “Disappointment” doesn’t come close.
jarra lad – thanks for that very interesting post. The trouble is, of course, that this Pope will not enforce his own words and instructions. He’ll talk about the undesirability of role reversal but he won’t say STOP to lay people playing at being priests. I’ve come to not expect much from him, although, in fairness, he’s the best we’ve had since the Second Vatican Catastrophe, as Gerald Warner calls it.
Credo, thanks – I wish you had been at the Conference. We had people from County Sligo and County Cork and some from the north of Ireland, so you’d have felt at home.
Michael, in virtue of the fact that the Orkney monks – with the exception of Father Nicholas Mary – have brokered a deal that sees them accepted in a Diocese, means that they must accept the new Mass and they may well say it in time to come. That’s been the pattern of the “reconciled” to date.
Fr Michael Mary said a lot of things in the past that he is now contradicting. Having supported the SSPX and the validity of their sacraments for years, he is now calling them into question.
Go figure, as our Torkay would say, if only I’d let him get a word in…
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Only seeking enlightenment here – not entering into an argument – I truly do not Know any of the details of the Transalpine Redemptorists’ agreement with Rome.
What do those of you who have said it mean precisely by ‘they accept the New Mass’? Do you mean simply that they acknowledge its validity, as we must all do, or have they used other expressions to indicate that they go further than this?
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there really is something not right here as I was told that the monks can only supply in Papastronsay and Stronsay and not anywhere else for the moment.who said they could supply elsewhere in the diocese?theres no way the monks would consider the new Mass acceptable. no way.
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Naomi,
priests of the Fraternity of St Peter who broke away from the SSPX (like the Transalpines) and made their own deal with Rome, have “accepted” the new Mass to the point where they will say it if asked. Can you imagine an SSPX priest doing that?
Michael,
why not email Father Michael Mary and ask him what he will do if Bishop Moran asks him to say the new Mass in a parish? That will settle your mind and educate us all.
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I know 2 priests of the FSSP who have never,nor would ever, say the new Mass. i also know several priests in Riaumont, France, who are in “good standing” who would never say it either.
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sorry, i didn’t see your last comment.yes, i will ask him.
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Well Michael, the priest-chaplain (FSSP) to a certain Catholic boarding school in France, said the new Mass – or so my contact in the north of Scotland told me!
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Yes, I have heard that about the FSSP but not witnessed it. However, Editor, crystalline though your answers usually are, have the Transalpines gone further than acknowledging validity? And it isn’t really fair to assume, before the event, that they may start saying the New Mass. And I don’t mind doghouses one little bit – rolling pins are a different matter.
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yes, you are right he did and still would because of some sense of “obedience”. anyway, he is not FSSP and was ordained by a diocesan bishop though he did start his seminary training with the FSSP. But, i’ve met other FSSP priests who just would not and that’s fact. i also know that there is a sort of split in the FSSP in this matter but still, its not accurate to say that they would all say the NO because they are reconciled.
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Michael
I wouldn’t go so far as to say that the priests of Papa Stronsay would say the New Mass. My point is that they have accepted it as a legitimate rite of the Catholic Church, which, of course, it is not, since it is a completely new construction of Protestant leaning that breaks absolutely from the established Roman rite.
Nor is the question one of validity. The New Mass may well be validly celebrated, but the rite remains illicit. Cardinal Ratzinger more or less confirms this in his assessment of the New Mass, which he called “a banal, on-the-spot fabrication.” So it’s not the Roman rite and the Redemptorists have no business accepting its legitimacy.
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Naomi, Michael, Athanasius,
I did not say that the monks would say the new Mass – I said that such had been the pattern of former “reconciliations”.
I’ve no way of knowing what they will do. Any emails I’ve ever sent to Father Michael Mary have gone unanswered, so I can only speak with any level of authority on his lack of good manners, not on his intentions with respect to the new Mass.
I hope that clarifies my position. Naomi, can’t find my rolling pin, so you’re OK on that front… for now!
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Valid and legitimate are not synonymous. I go no further than saying that the NO is valid – just. I wouldn’t call it ‘legitimate’ which is nearer synonymous with ‘licit’. So, what exactly have the Transalpines said? It isn’t fair to say they are calling the NO ‘legitimate’ if they are only saying ‘valid’. I don’t know what they have said, but I wouldn’t want to misquote them.
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Naomi
It’s not a question of what the Redemptorists may, or may not, have said, about the New Mass. Any priest or religious who fails to roundly condemn this illicit rite as the root cause of the apostasy and all the consequent abuses today present in every parish church, is complicit by his silence.
This is not just about the Redemptorists, it’s about every so-called traditional institution whose priests accept the legitimacy of that Mass as the ‘ordinary’ rite of the Church. It is not and never will be the ordinary rite in theological terms because the ordinary rite of Mass in the Western Church is the Roman rite, which the New Mass is not.
It is incumbent upon every priest of God who understands how the New Mass came to be, and the reasons for its foisting upon the faithful, to speak the truth concerning it no matter what the cost, because no less than eternal souls depend on their honesty and integrity.
The SSPX hasn’t failed in the matter, so why have the rest? I’ll tell you why. It is because they stand to lose their privileges by being forthright, and I’m afraid most are not made of the stuff of martyrs. They fear to upset their modernist superiors, so they disguise their cowardice behind obedience.
The Novus Ordo Mass is appalling. It is not fully Catholic, it is dangerous to souls, it is the root of many abuses against the Blessed Sacrament and it is not fixable because it has no ancestry with the true Roman rite. I cannot understand how any priest who knows better can accept its legitimacy, even if he never celebrates it personally. It’s a dud and it has to go.
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Hello everyone I’ve been wondering how Fathers Gruner and Kramer did over there in Scotland by reading the blogs it sounds like it was an immense success. I wish I could have been there last weekend. Please remember when praying the holy rosary to ask our Lady to help remove the weeds that impede the Holy Father and Bishops from doing the consecration Russia. May God and our Lady Fatima bless you dear friends!
From Maine USA -
Welcome to our blog, weedsbegone! And thank you for your first comment. I, too, wish you could have been at our Conference – you’d have loved it!
You are correct to suggest praying for the removal of the “weeds” – the dissenters – so called ‘liberals’ – who surround the Pope and seek to prevent him from restoring the Faith.
We already have some regular bloggers from the USA (Torkay and Miles Christi Sum being the most regular) so we are delighted to welcome another. Keep blogging with us, weedsbegone, we need you!
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jarra lad,
Great Post regarding the Brazilian Bishops ad limina visit. The Holy Father was also warning the Bishops of the dangers of liberation theology and the role of what can only be described as ’socialist’ priests in Southern and Central America. It is a rampant disease that has infected the church her pastors and religious in the America’s.
I worked in Haiti in an area called Nan Pele in the heart of what is know as Cite Soleil, and a few other countries in the developed world. I cannot describe the horrors or the extreme poverty that I witnessed. There are a few comments that I will make:
1) Traditional Catholicism is very much at the heart of the society of these countries; However there is a lack and I would stress this; a distinct lack as in non existent presence of priests from any of the traditional societies to say the traditional mass. I do not know the reason for this, nor do I wish to speculate.
2) There are orders here that one would regard as the pillars of the church: Jesuits, Dominicans and Franciscans; there is very little use of extra-ordinary ministers and lots of church activity; legion of Mary, confraternities of various saints etc. Now comes the interesting part; there are a number of priests who preach the gospel but with strong political and socialist tendencies. One priest had a tabernacle made from the remains of a shanty hut; that the people could identify with Christ who also would live in corrugated iron. i found this completely ridiculous and a direct lack of reverence and respect for the Blessed Sacrament.
3) The Church is growing in these continents and at a faster rate than anywhere else; The Liberals are the very much the Pastors of these churches and I would argue dangerous ones at that. There are off course SSPX centres in Argentina and the Philippines and a few in the better off nations of Africa. It is my prayer that the SSPX are soon reconciled with Rome and becomes a Missionary Society in its true from: Faith, Charity and Love to those who need it, not just too comfortable westerners who can afford the upkeep of the priests.
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There have been many comments in various threads on this blog about the validity and about the licitness of the Novus Ordo Mass and on balance I had been under the impression that, lacking though it was, it was valid.
However, after listening to Fr Kramer at the Conference, and having begun to read his outstanding book: “The Suicide of Altering the Faith in the Liturgy” I am in no doubt whatsoever that the Novus Ordo Mass is neither valid nor licit.
Fr Kramer reminded us at the Conference that the liturgy must be both approved and passed on as received. Although it may have been approved, it is most definitely not as received.
In his book, he gives numerous quotations, most of them of Popes speaking Ex Cathdra, to the effect that the Mass of the ancient rite cannot be altered, and yet that is just what has happened – in flagrant disobedience of the Holy Ghost and the Magisterium of the Church.
There can surely be no more need to wonder about the Novus Ordo Mass. It is illegal.
Simple.
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leprechaun
I think this is the first time ever that I’ve found myself in disagreement with you, but I have to tell you that you’re quite wrong when you say that the New Mass is at all times invalid.
As long as the words of consecration are present and the priest has, in addition, the correct matter and intention, then there is no question that his Mass is valid. Indeed, even Satanist priests can celebrate a valid Mass, albeit sacrilegiously.
What Fr. Kramer is saying is that the New Mass is at all times illicit and, we may deduce from its construction and the liturgical ignorance of many priests, quite regularly invalid, but not always. To make a sweeping statement like that is over simplistic and dangerously close to the adoption of a schismatic mentality. I urge you to re-think your position in the matter.
The words of consecration alone confect transubstantiation and make Our Lord present on the altar. All the other parts of the Mass, before and after the consecration, while essential to the expressing of the sacrificial nature of the Mass, do not, however, invalidate the Mass when absent or altered.
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weedsbegone
Thank you for an excellent post. Everything you say is so true. Welcome to the blog and please stay with us.
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Savio
I agree with you that this ‘Liberation Theology’ has been a thorn in the side of Catholicism in Latin America and other poor nations since the Council. I remember well the activities of such Jesuits as Fr. Boff in Brasil (I think). He and his Lib Theo confrers were just Marxists, pure and simple. They did much damage to souls in those poor regions.
As for the SSPX not having a presence in some of the poorer countries you mention, this has nothing whatever to do with a neglect of the poor.
I know the SSPX is located, as you point out, in Philippines where it ministers to the poor in many poverty-stricken areas of that country. It has also had a presence in the poorer parts of India for decades. I know two SSPX priests whose health has been broken by disease as a result of their ministries in India.
The problem for the SSPX is shortage of priests to cover every area of the world. It has to concentrate its main efforts on winning the wealthier nations of the West back to tradition, while at the same time looking to help poorer countries where the Faith is perhaps stronger. It comes down to logistics, not neglect.
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Athanasius,
I am not suggesting that there is neglect on the part of the SSPX or any other of the traditional societies, I was merely pointing out their absence; the lack of ‘manpower’ is a huge concern. I have experience of these countries and the priests that mission to them. The fear I have is that while these countries have strong faith, they might be the hardest to convert back to the use of the traditional rite, and I use the word convert back to highlight their ‘evolution’ of the NO to a state that is well advanced of that in the developed world. We have to thank for that ‘evolution’ a massive amount of liberals and habit ditching sisters. It would be great to analyse the results, if there are any; local perceptions and knowledge of the ‘old’ rite. I am sure that there would be some interesting findings on an anthropological level. I am sure that there would be a direct association with colonialism and the need to break free; the origins of the muck that is VII and liberation theology”… let us break free from the bonds that bind us to the old world and celebrate our own faith in our won language in our own way, that is as sacred and holy as any other” Fr. x. SJ.
If anyone knows of anything related I would be most grateful. -
Ath and lep
OK, you guys are confusing me regarding the Novus Ordo. I believe lep’s point is a big picture point, focusing on the NO’s failure to pass on what was received and the statements of numerous Popes that the Mass cannot be altered. This is an assessment of the rite taken as a whole.
Ath’s point, however (as far as I can understand things) addresses only one liturgical event within said rite: the Consecration, which we know is valid if performed with correct matter and intention.
Ath, I don’t think your response addresses leprechaun’s complaint, but I’m not sure. How can you have a valid Consecration housed within a rite that Fr Kramer has apparently described as invalid?
Another question: from whence cometh this principle that the liturgy must be both approved and passed on as received?
Sometimes I wish there wasn’t so much fine print in our religion…..
Signed,
The Amateur Catholic -
One of my sisters has just returned from South America where she says the liturgy is beyond belief in its madness. She though she had plumbed the depths in average French parishes and even in Italy, but she said the Mass in South America doesn’t remotely resemble any Mass she has previously frequented. She actually thought the priest was demented until a friend told her that this was the norm. It contrasted strangely with the very deep faith of the people so I think what Savio says is so pertinent. Yes, they will be difficult to convert back.
Another country which is a bit like this, though no way as bad, is Ireland. I was there last year and although Masses were fairly sober, no trace of the old faith seems to remain which will also make them more difficult to bring back too. It’s weird the way the “land of saints and scholars” has capitulated the way it did. Perhaps it’s because of the betrayal of the clergy to whom the people always looked up to. I suppose countries like France had their revolution to keep the faithful on their toes (if they kept their heads). Scotland is another mystery. Was it the Irish legacy that caused such a capitulation, does anyone think?
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Tomas de Torkay:
You are asking about the principle that the liturgy must be both approved and passed on as received.
Session VII, can.XIII is quoted for: The Tridentine Profession of Faith of Pope Pius IV [Iniunctum Nobis] prescribes adherence to the “received and approved rites of the Catholic Church used in the solemn administration of the sacraments. “The ‘received and approved rites’ are the rites established by custom, and hence the Council of Trent refers to them as the “received and of the Catholic Church customarily used in the solemn administration of the sacraments”approved rites. This extract comes from Fr Kramer’s book mentioned earlier.
Does that satisfactorily answer your question?
Athanasius:
I am much to wise to enter into combat with you over the Novus Ordo Mass, but I think Tomas does have a point. The consecration in the Novus Ordo Mass may well be valid, but if the framework in which it is embedded is itself forbidden fruit which ought never to have been brought forth, then does the validity of the consecration count as the rite itself has no right to be performed?
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Oops – apologies. The switch off from italics slipped my mind. They are not meant to run right to the end.
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Torkay
I wasn’t looking at Lep’s compalint, I was addressing his conclusion that the NO is at all times invalid. I am not aware that Fr. Kramer has ever clearly stated such a thing.
My point is that, regardless of all the other parts that surround the Mass, the singular requirement of the Church for a valid Mass is that it be celebrated by a validly ordained priest who uses the correct matter, form and intention of the Church when consecrating. If the requirements are met for the consecration, then that is a valid Mass.
Your second question, for me, has a very simple answer. The principle that the Mass must be both approved and passed on as received comes from the Church’s established teaching that she passes on that which she has received.
Clearly, since papal approbation is secondary to tradition, it follows that the principle must be that every new development in theology, doctrine and liturgy must flow from that which is already established by the authentic magisterium (indefectibility) down through the ages. The same is held for Canon Law.
A single Pope or series of Popes, therefore, cannot bring something new to the Catholic religion that contradicts or nullifies what went before.
Note how the indefectibility of the Church is not nullified by the NO, in that it has retained the words of consecration and, let us remember that Pope Paul VI did not abrogate the old rite. Yes, the new rite itself is a break with the established liturgy of the past, particularly in its suppression of the sacrificial nature of the Mass, which is a clear breach and an abuse of papal authority. But the mystery of transubstantiation remains even in the NO if the correct formula is used.
Does this help, or have I made myself perfectly obscure?
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Athanasius:
I would like to know if you have read Fr Kramer’s book: “The Suicide of altering the Faith in the Liturgy”?
I have only just begun to read it, and the Novus Ordo Mass may get mentioned further along, but his point still weighs heavily in my mind: The Novus Ordo Liturgy is not an organic growth from the Mass of all time. It is a completely new confection and it has no right to exist.
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leprechaun
I don’t think any of us would say that a Satanic Mass (Black Mass) has any right to be performed. Yet, the Church teaches that such sacrilegious Masses, if performed by a validly ordained priest (it does happen), are valid.
Now the Novus Ordo, despite its appalling Protestant construction and the danger it represents to the faithful, is nevertheless not comparable with a Satanic rite. It follows, then, that Novus Ordo Masses can certainly be valid if and when the matter, form and intention are present.
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leprechaun
I have not yet read Fr. Kramer’s book, but I agree absolutely that it is a new confection that has no right to exist. There is, however, a difference between saying this and arguing that, as a consequence of its illegitimacy, it is at all times invalid. The latter proposition does not automatically flow from the former. We must separate the question of legitimacy from that of validity.
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Athanasius,
I cannot strongly contradict what you say about something being valid despite being illegitimate. I have recollections of legitimacy being a sine qua non to many claims, but not being a scholar I hesitate to draw a parallel between them and the subject we are currently debating.
Supporters of the SSPX know that Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre’s objections to the Novus Ordo were absolutely valid, but the Conciliar Hierarchs saw him as outside the pale because he would not accept the findings of the 2nd Vatican Council as a consequence of which he was not allowed to explain his standpoint. To them, he was “outside” and therefore anything he wanted to say or do was invalid by their standards.
The Magisterium of the Church of all time holds that the new confection is illegitimate because it is not what was received from Tradition, and that is why I am inclined to feel that it is invalid.
I propose a halt to this particular point until we have each finished reading Fr Kramer’s book. At that point, either one of us may have undergone a change of opinion.
Thank you for your ever courteous intervention.
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That’s a mean one, Leprechaun – I was just about to put my oar in! I’m looking forward to reading Fr. Kramer’s book, but am currently on Ferrara’s regarding the Third Secret. However, reading through the debate above, I can’t see that the NO is valid but I must believe that it is because of the indefectability of the Church, as Athanasius mentioned. Michael Davies convinced me long ago that in spite of all appearances, and both reasoned and emotional responses to the contrary, the Church cannot promulgate an invalid rite. I don’t understand, but I accept it by faith.
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Welcome to the aftermath, Naomi. I wonder whether Madam Editor will wish to make a contribution, or perhaps she too is feverishly digesting Fr Kramer’s book.
Would that he were a reader of this blog and could be persuaded to tell us how it is, even if he were to do it via a note to a third party should he not wish to register in person.
Does anyone who is really really busy at this moment have his e-mail address to be able to invite him to submit his point of view?
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Dear Editor and to all thank you for your welcome. I find that Holy Ghost is working his wisdom well here, very educational and inspirational. We must not stumble with many different scandals that the devil puts in our Holy Father’s way, we must work even harder for our Lady’s victory.
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weedsbegone
Very wise words indeed.
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leprechaun
Sadly, I don’t have Fr. Kramer’s email address but I think he would be the first to say that his intention is not to deny the possible validity of the New Mass. I know for a fact that reading Father’s book will not change my opinion in the matter. I’m with Archbishop Lefebrve on this one and somehow I think you will be too, eventually.
In the meantime, let’s take Naomi’s wise observation that the Church cannot promulgate a rite of Mass that is per se invalid.
Now, how long will it be, think ye, before another differing of opinion arises between us? Still, it’s good from the point of view that it has aired a question that others of good will are doubtless divided over.
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Athanasius,
In common with yourself, I too hope it will be a long time before we find another issue that divides us.
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Sorry for the poor English in my last post. Just an idea, how about placing green scapulars in the churches where the Novus Ordo Masses are said, I am willing to do the churches near me.
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leprechaun, I am doing my best to read Fr Kramer’s book when I get time and already I can well understand why Kevin Rowles (see letter in September 09 newsletter) has resolved never to attend another novus ordo Mass.
I now avoid it like the plague anyway but family funerals and weddings are set to be NO unless we can obtain a special grace. Please pray to that end. The thought of anyone near and dear to me, having a NO funeral, would be enough to keep me awake at night, were it not for the fact that I’m always so tired when I hit the hay!
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Athanasius, one of the key things brought out in Father Kramer’s book “The Suicide…” is that the Pope (Paul VI) did not promulgate a new rite of Mass. The only thing ever promulgated was the new missal in April of 1970.
Archbishop Lefebvre does say that, with the correct matter, form and intention, a new Mass might be valid (although always illicit) but he also points out that increasingly, these Masses are of doubtful validity. That is very serious. Like Archbishop Lefebvre, Father Kramer highlights the change in the words of consecration of the chalice and “for all” instead of “for many”. It seems that the best that can be said of a NO Mass is that it is a risky occasion.
Fr Kramer follows a logical plan in his text and on p.78, (his Conclusion to Book I), following the major premise, minor premise and conclusion, he gives two corollaries:
1)
Whoever, therefore, says that Quo Primum can be abrogated and that the Tridentine Mass may be abrogated, suppressed or otherwise abolished and replaced by a “new rite of Mass”, departs from the solemnly defined teaching of the Catholic Church and falls into heresy.
2)
Likewise, whoever abandons the Tridentine Mass, infallibly declared by St Pius V to be perpetually and irrevocably normative, and adheres to a “new rite of Mass”, withdraws from proper communion with the Church and falls into schism.
Appendix II “The Doubtful Validity of the Novus Ordo Missae” is an excellent academic synopsis – very precise, concise and crystal clear.
On p.29 of his Open Letter to Confused Catholics, having dealt with the question of validity, Archbishop Lefebvre points out that attendance at this “new rite of Mass” cannot be the object of obligation for a Catholic. Read in conjunction with Father Kramer’s “Suicide”, it is very clear why this is the case.
I’m still dipping into Father Kramer’s text, leprechaun, but so far the only difference I can see in Fr Kramer’s position from that of Archbishop Lefebvre (unless I’ve missed it) is that he contends unequivocably that no Mass where the priest says “for all” instead of “for many/for the multitude” can be valid.
This is a matter of huge concern since most priests have been saying “for all” ever since I can remember. Although I’ve heard the “for all” argument often down the years, this is the first time I’ve read a priest stating unequivocally, that this change in the words alone invalidates the Mass.
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editor
I agree. All Catholics with knowledge of the origin and construction of this Mass should refrain from attending it and get as many others as possible to refrain from attending it. Most can find a Latin Mass somewhere closeby.
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I’ve just got through the first part of Father Kramer’s book – the part dealing with the Novus Ordo and I fear that he has thrown a spanner into the works for me, if I have understood him correctly. He maintains, on p13, that the new Missal and subsequent documents were promulgated by the Sacred Congregation for Divine Worship, not by Paul VI, and says:-
All of this legislation is clearly invalid because it violates one of the nost basic rules of law………(namely that) an inferior cannot annul a superior’s law. He goes on The executive decrees of the Roman dicasteries do not have the authority to nullify the solemn decrees of Quo Primum.
Ooer. So if the legislation itself is invalid, has the new Mass actually been ‘promulgated’ by the Church??? Over to you wiser bloggers.
Father Kramer has reminded me of something that Michael Davies maintains that I forgot to say above, i.e. that the Novus Ordo is only valid in its original Latin (with pro multis) and not in the various vernacular ‘translations’.
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Sorry Editor – several posts, including yours got in while I was labouring with my 10 words a minute. Please cancel me out.
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Athanasius
Sad but not all of us have the true Latin mass near us. Please for us. -
sorry, pray for us. I am playing with my six year old Anthony.
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weedsbegone, can’t remember if you told us or not, but are you in Scotland? What happens in your parish – i.e. do you have lay people giving out Holy Communion, standing, Communion in the hand and from the chalice? Wandering around at the sign of anything-but-peace?
If so, how do you keep your temper?
And do you want us to pray for you because you can’t get to the traditional Mass or because your son, Anthony, is winning the game?????
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Dear Editor,
I am more near to Nova Scotia than Scotland and yes my son is winning.
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Naomi
It really doesn’t matter that the New Mass was promulgated by the Congregation for Divine Worship because it acted on the express command of Pope Paul VI.
I like what Michael Davies had to say concerning pro multis. He may well have made a valid point there.
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weedsbegone
I pray for you and for all faithful Catholics deprived of the true Mass. How could the shepherds of the Church so wontonly abandon so many traditional Catholic souls without, apparently, a second thought. And they say the SSPX is divisive!!
By the way, don’t let weedsbegone Jnr. win the game unless, of course, he’s a sore loser and you value peace in the home!!
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Sadly yes. I moved to Maine (to be near my wife’s family) from my home state of Kansas where I was able to go to the Latin mass. Where I live in Maine there are no Latin Mass, only in French and very libby. Just a little note when I moved to Maine about ten years ago most of the Catholic churches here had the tabernacles on the side or worst in a closet, poor Jesus. So I prayed to our Lady for about five years and ask her to put her Divine son back where he belongs. Well our Lady answer my pray and her son our Lord was place back right in the front. I am sure I was not the only praying for this but what I am saying prayer is the only way to restore the true mass. It will be done our Lady will win.
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weedsbegone
Well done to you for praying for five years for such a noble cause. Our Lord and His Holy Mother will reward you. What you want to do now is start another novena for the Latin Mass to be brought to Maine. In the meantime, keep up those rosaries and you’ll never be abandoned.
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I’ve been following this discussion somewhat, and find it edifying so far. I think what can get problematic is when traditionalists are not clear in what they mean.
The Novus Ordo is not invalid.
But Novus Ordo Masses can and often are invalid, because of issues dealing with the proper matter, form, and intention.
Those are two different, albeit closely related, issues. I agree with the poster that the Novus Ordo Mass does not have the right to exist. This is because error has no rights, correct?
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Editor,
Thought this post might be of interest. Maybe the the SSPX Rosary Crusade is having heaven’s grace’s bestowed sooner, even than I thought and the consecration of Russia to the immaculate Heart of Mary might be imminent , lets hope and pray so?Vatican sees end to tensions with Russian Orthodox
By VICTOR L. SIMPSON (AP) – 1 day ago
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5h3GGmpEmMP1pACVz6wQs56-KsI8wD9AP6IL81VATICAN CITY — Relations with the Russian Orthodox church have vastly improved, possibly paving the way for a papal visit to Moscow or a historic meeting between the pope and the Orthodox patriarch outside of Russia or the Vatican, a senior Vatican cardinal said Thursday.
Cardinal Walter Kasper told Vatican Radio “we have overcome all the tensions in recent years.”
Jarra Lad
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Catholic Thurifer
Welcome to our blog and thank you for your comments.
The term ‘error has no rights’ is perfectly true and is applicable to those who call for the abrogation of the New Mass. However, just because the New Mass is riddled with error doesn’t mean it is per se invalid.
The words of consecration in the New Mass, when spoken by a priest who uses correct matter and has the intention of the Church to consecrate, is valid because these words of Our Lord Himself are not erroneous.
As I stated earlier, no matter how erroneous the theology of the New Mass may be, it still encapsulates those sacred and central words of Our Lord which will make it valid if the priest has the correct matter and disposition. Licitness is another question altogether, but, yes, this Protestantised Mass needs to go sooner rather than later.
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jarra lad
Be careful with this apparent rapproachment between the Vatican and the Orthodox, it may not be what it seems on the surface. I’m suspicious of anything Cardinal Kasper is involved in, particularly on this occasion when there is a growing voice in the Catholic world for the Pope to perform the consecration of Russia. It’s not uncommon for Communists, and there remain many within the Russian Orthodox clergy, to turn friendly when threatened. I hope I’m wrong, but for now I’m highly cautious.
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As there has been some reference to ‘pro multis’ here I thought I would look up the Catechism of the Council of Trent again. For the sake of those who are unfamiliar with the ‘pro multis’ v ‘for all’ the following is instructive.
(In the analysis of the words of Consecration in the Mass) The additional words, “for you and for many,” are taken, some from Matthew (Matt. xxxvi, 28), and some from Luke (Luke, xxii, 20), but have been joined together by Holy Church under the guidance of the spirit of God; and they serve to declare the fruit and advantage of his passion. For, if we look to its virtue, we shall have to confess that his blood was shed by the Saviour for the salvation of all; but if we consider the fruit which men have received from it, we easily understand that it reaches not all, but many only. When, therefore, he said “for you,” he meant either those who were present, or those chosen from from amongst the Jewish people, such as were, with the exception of Judas, the disciples with whom he was speaking; but when he added, “for many,” he wished to be understood the remainder of the elect from amongst the Jews or Gentiles. With reason, therefore, were the words “for all” not used, as in this place the fruits of the passion are alone spoken of, and to the elect only did that bring the fruit of salvation. And this is the purport of these words of the apostle: “Christ was offered once, to exhaust the sins of many” (Heb. ix, 28); and also of what the Lord says in John: “I pray for them; I pray not for the world, but for them whom thou hast given me, because they are thine” (John, xvii, 9). In the words of this consecration lie hid very many other mysteries, which pastors themselves, by the assiduous meditation and study of divine things, will with divine assistance, easily discover.
As the Council of Trent was convoked to counter the errors of the heresiarchs, it is clear enough that the insertion of ‘for all’ into the vernacular translations, against every Catholic instinct, against the guidance of the Holy Spirit, has the deliberate intention of inserting Protestant theology here, into the most crucial of moments. Out of the window goes the doctrine of the Mystical Body of Christ, so well-known in my schooldays, and out goes everything included and embraced by that doctrine.
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Athanasius,
While I am totally in agreement with you in this apparent rapprochement between the Vatican and the Orthodox, especially as regards to Cardinal Kasper and his involvement! Indeed, it may not be what it seems on the surface! However, we do not know the mind of the Holy Father at present also! After all hope see what is not , and yet might be, out of little acorns and all that! Lets hope and pray!Jarra Lad
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jarra lad
Quite right, let’s wait and see.
Naomi
You’re also right. The replacement of ‘for many’ with ‘for all’ was a deliberate botch of Our Lords own words. The change was made to suit ecumenism, a sign if ever there was one that ecumenists do not the work of God. However, most theologians of a traditional mind agree that the change is not sufficient to nullify the consecration. Great post, though. Very informative!
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Naomi, Father Kramer quoted that entire piece from the Council of Trent in his book “The Suicide”… and he discusses the arguments of theologians on both sides of the “pro multis” dilemma and centres on the “probability” (or otherwise) of validity.
His conclusion is clear: “It nees to be emphasised that a Mass which is probably valid, even if there is a relatively high probability of validity, is totally and gravely illicit, since the Church’s moral doctrine, set forth by Pope Innocent XI (see Fottnote 80, p.97) clearly forbids probably valid sacraments. Thus, it is gravely sinful (in the objective moral order) for anyone to celebrate or attend Mass when the vernacular expression “for all” is used in the consecration of the chalice, since that formula of consecration is not certainly valid”. (emphasis, Fr Kramer)
Who, knowing this, would ever receive Communion at a Novus Ordo Mass, no matter how “reverently” the priest says it?
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Who, knowing this, would ever receive Communion at a Novus Ordo Mass, no matter how “reverently” the priest says it?
At some diocesan TLMs since S.P., priests won’t consecrate new Hosts whenever there are already Hosts in the Tabernacle consecrated from previous Novus Ordo Masses. He will simply take the Hosts from the Tabernacle and distribute those at the TLM. Should one receive Communion in that case? How does one know if the Novus Ordo mass in that particular parish is valid?
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Good question, CatholicThurifer. Why not ask the parish priest if he says “for all” or “for many”?
Or, better still. Why not attend the SSPX chapels and then you can be CERTAIN of validity?
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Here is a letter of Archbishop Lefebvre to Pope John Paul II, dated March 8th 1980. This is my stand on matters regarding the New Mass, e.g., it is a valid but unorthodox and illicit rite.
Most Holy Father,
To put an end to some rumors which are now spreading both in Rome and certain traditionalist circles in Europe, and even in America, concerning my attitude and my way of thinking with respect to the Pope, the Council, and the Novus Ordo Mass, and fearing lest these rumors should reach Your Holiness, I may make so bold as to reaffirm my consistent position.
1. I have no reservation whatsoever concerning the legitimacy and validity of your election, and consequently I cannot tolerate there not being addressed to God the prayers prescribed by Holy Church for Your Holiness. I have already had to act with severity, and continue to do so, with regard to some seminarians and priests who have allowed themselves to be influenced by certain clerics who do not belong to the Society.
2. I am fully in agreement with the judgment that Your Holiness gave on the Second Vatican Council, on 6 November 1978, at a meeting of the Sacred College: “that the Council must be understood in the light of the whole of holy Tradition, and on the basis of the unvarying Magisterium of Holy Mother Church.
3. As for the Novus Ordo Mass, despite the reservations, which must be shown in its respect, I have never affirmed that it is in itself invalid or heretical.
I would be grateful to God and to Your Holiness if these clear declarations could hasten the free use of the traditional liturgy, and the recognition of the Society of St. Pius X by the Church, and likewise of all those who, subscribing to these declarations, have striven to save the Church by perpetuating its Tradition.
I beg Your Holiness to accept my profound and filial respect in Christo et Maria.
+ Marcel Lefebvre
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Catholic Thurifer
I agree with editor that, for your faith’ sake you should try to attend Mass at an SSPX church. My reason for saying this is that, while it may be valid, the New Mass erodes the Catholic Faith in those souls who attend it with frequency. Apart from the words of consecration, the theology surrounding this Mass is of a Protestant nature, which has, in practice, worked to obscure the sacrificial nature of the Mas and has caused a good many to lose belief in the real presence of Our Lord.
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Well the closest is almost 3 hours away. I’d rather attend there anyways, because they don’t water down anything when it comes to Tradition. I don’t go to the Novus Ordo, I was just pointing out an example of what’s happening at some diocesan TLM’s since S.P. They give you the Mass, but not the entire Catholic religion. Hopefully grace will work on them over time.
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Catholic Thurifer
I agree that the diocessan TLM’s may be deficient in, say, the doctrinal content of homilies. However, the fact that there is an increase in some places in diocessan TLM’s since SP is a cause for rejoicing. It shows that the reversal has begun by the hand of God. We’re only at the beginning of the recovery. It will take time, but the full restoration of tradition in the Church is inevitable.
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Athanasius,
Having read chunks (but not all) of Father Kramer’s analysis of the new Mass, and having read Archbishop Lefebvre’s letter to the Pope which you posted above, I am rather puzzled.
Firstly, given the clear quotation from Fr Kramer’s about “probable (only) validity” which I cited above, and if, as you say above, the new Mass erodes the Catholic Faith in souls (and this comes through clearly in Archbishop Lefebvre’s Open Letter to Confused Catholics) then it is a little puzzling to read the Archbishop’s assurance in his letter to the Pope, that he does not believe that the new Mass “is in itself invalid or heretical.”
This jars a little – if the new Mass is essentially Protestant, and if the change in the words of consecration (“for all”) mean there is only “probable validity”, why does the Archbishop argue that it is not “in itself” …. heretical?
I have to say that when I attend a NO Mass, the word uppermost in my mind most of the time is “heresy”.
I can’t help wondering what position the Archbishop would take today – what do you think?
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Athanasius, I agree that it’s a great thing too. It’s just that one issue that’s really been biting me for some time, as they did not always do that.
Editor, I would think that it might have something to do with the Novus Ordo being extrinsically inferior, but not intrinsically inferior. I remember reading something about that on the blog “Athanasius Contra Mundum”. I’m sure the Athanasius here, however, can give you a better answer in that regard.
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editor
When Archbishop Lefebvre made that statement to the Pope he was merely announcing that there is nothing intrinsically heretical in the wording of the New Mass itself. However, he did not deny that its construction opened the liturgy up to heresy.
There have been a good many heretical Masses since this rite was promulgated in 1969, heresies that could never have taken place with the old rite. Indeed, we have witnessed the ramifications of its Protestant-like theology in such matters as the Blessed Sacrament.
In this respect I would disagree with Catholic Thurifer. I would say that the New Mass is both intrinsically and extrinsically inferior to the truly Catholic Mass codified at Trent.
The bottom line is that the New Mass is greatly inferior to the rite that preceeded it and it opens up the possibility of heresy by its obscuring of the sacrificial nature of the Mass. Sadly, this obscuring of the sacrifice has raised huge questions as to just how many Novus Ordo Masses are now valid. That’s why it has to go. It has no right to exist because its theology is alien to the Mass of all time.
Fr. Kramer calls it a new creation. This is key to understanding the problem with the New Mass. The Novus Ordo is not a continuation of the established Roman rite in any way outside of the words of consecration, which words are the only reason why it retains validity. In all other ways it is novel and dangerous to faith.
As for Fr. Kramer’s insistence that the “for all” casts doubts on the consecration itself. Many eminent theologians have discussed this change and all agree that it does not nullify the consecration. Archbishop Lefebvre also rejected the argument that it nullified the consecration.
Now I know that Fr. Kramer is no sedevacantist, but to my knowledge it is mostly those of the sedevacantist mindset who hold this position. It is not a sustainable objection.
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leprechaun and Athanasius (et. al.)
Sorry to have raised this issue and then disappear. I offer the lame excuse that I’ve been working on my contribution to the next newsletter – and somewhat feverishly at that, since Editor informed me earlier today that she had begun counting backwards, and that should she reach zero, her rolling pin would begin its downward path toward my cranium….
Anyway, your answers regarding liturgy being approved and passed on as received were indeed helpful. However, the rest of the discussion has only deepened my confusion, as it appears that each point regarding validity contradicts the next. So I’m going to climb into the boat with Naomi and Editor and row blindly in faith.
Perhaps the real issues are these:
1. The Abbe de Nantes, as we’ve mentioned previously, claims that the Novus Ordo was never actually promulgated, and that the decree was deliberately mistranslated. This appears to confirm what Paul VI himself said, that he was merely offering this new rite as an alternative. (so, if really never promulgated, this places the NO on even shakier ground, in my opinion)
2. The validity of the NO, if it is valid at all (?), appears to rest solely on the fact that it can claim a valid, though subtly altered, Consecration. Everything else about it is either heresy, or supports heresy! So could we ask, is its potential validity even relevant? Why would it matter in the slightest whether this rite is valid, if it poisons the faith and poisons the Church?
Row, row, row your boat……
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Ath
Sorry, just re-read your explanation of +Lefebvre’s statement, that there is nothing intrinsically heretical in the NO – so please cross out “Everything else about it is either heresy…” from my post above.
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Torkay
The reason why establishing the truth about the validity of the New Mass is so important is to show that Our Lord does not permit his Popes to promulgate errors against the Faith.
When Mgr. Bugnini first prepared the preface to the New Mass, he referred to it as the ‘meal’ of ’supper of the Lord.’ Pope Paul VI spotted this and ordered it changed to read ’sacrifice.’ We can see in this event that Our Lord was protecting the liturgy from explicit heresy.
I don’t think Paul VI was duped by anyone when it came to promulgating the New Mass. This Pope insisted on its creation and he definitely gave the impression that it was to supercede the existing rite, although he didn’t say as much. He even reigned long enough after its promulgation to witness its establishment everywhere over the Tridentine rite.
What this Pope did do was make arrangements for some who felt uncomfortable with his new rite, allowing them to continue with the old on his permission. That doesn’t sound to me like he was just introducing an alternative rite to the Church which priests were free to choose or reject as their norm for celebration. As usual, all was done ambiguously with the establishment of the new Mass as it was with some of the strange doctrines that came to be preached after Vatican II.
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Athanasius,
As usual your last post creates a few problems for me. You stated that:
“….make arrangements for some who felt uncomfortable with his new rite….”
Two points here.
1. His Holiness did not make arrangements for some. He make arrangements for EVERYONE. That we have princes of the Church who are either willfully or tacitly preventing this is in defiance of the Pope and laity and they will answer for this on judgement day.
2. “with his new rite” – His Holiness was explicit in stating the Old Mass was but a form of the one Roman Rite and as such both valid and licit.
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Athanasius,
Just pressed the transmit button when a thought occurred to me. By this Pope in your last paragraph of your 1.29pm post did you really mean that Pope i.e. Pope Paul VI or was it indeed this Pope- Benedict XVI?
Just a bit of this and that really but this does has a bearing on that last posting of mine.
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Benedict
My comments were about Pope Paul VI. You seen to be talking of Pope Benedict XVI. Pay attention, fella!
If you are commenting on Paul VI then you’re plain wrong. This Pope made no general provision whatsoever for those who wanted to retain the old rite. He only gave dispensation to those who asked for it, and these were usually in positions of privilege. Furthermore, he made no specific mention of the old rite remaining legitimate as an alternative rite of Mass.
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Benedict, what a real pity that you didn’t attend Saturday’s Conference because you would not have repeated the nonsense of the one Roman rite and the two forms.
Father Kramer quoted liberally (no pun intended) from Pope Paul VI’s own words that here he was giving us an entirely NEW rite. The Roman rite was now dead.
Please do send for Father Kramer’s book “The Suicide of Altering the Faith in its Liturgy” because it is full of thoroughly documented quotes from Popes and theologians on the subject of what Cardinal Ratzinger referred to as this “fabrication – a banal, on the spot product” that we call the novus ordo Mass. (quoted in the Preface to the French edition of The Reform of the Roman Liturgy: its problems and background by Monsignor Klaus Gamber.
Order both these books from Carmel Books – see address and phone number at http://www.catholictruthscotland.com/page4.html
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Archbishop Lefebvre’s conclusion on the validity of the New Rite:
“It is possible that there will be more and more invalid Masses. But it seems to me that it cannot be said absolutely that all new Masses are invalid in principle. Validity is not enough to make a good Mass. The word validity is a snare(trap). For many people unaccustomed to theological and canonical vocabulary, validity means good… That is not what it means.! Validity means the presence, the efficacy if you will, of the grace found in the Sacrament. The efficacy of the rite can be preserved even if the ceremony is sacrilegiuos!
Even though the validity of the Mass cannot be called into question, it is a corrupted Mass. Because it no loner affirms the specifically Catholic truths of the Mass for the sake of pleasing the Protestants. That is why it is impossible for me to say that this reform is only bad in a purely accidental, extrinsic way.
There is a conclusion that some people reach, sometimes even people close to us, who are self styled “traditionalists”. You hear them say “The Old Mass is better, certainly, but the other is not bad.” The New Mass is corrupted, it is bad; it makes us gradually lose the faith. We are indeed obliged to refuse it.
The changes that have been made to the new Mass make it dangerous, corrupted. This reformation, derives from heresy and results in heresy, even if all its acts are not formally heretical. It is therefore impossible for any conscientious and faithful Catholic to espouse this reformation and to submit to it in any way whatsoever!” — Archbishop Lefebvre
From the THE MASS OF ALL TIME, a book that has compiled all of the Archbishop’s writings and statements concerning the ancient mass and the new Mass.
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Miles Christi Sum
Thank you for posting those wise words of Archbishop Lefebvre. He said it more concisely than I ever could. Thank God for Archbishop Lefebvre and his wisdom.
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Athanasius
“Thank God for Archbishop Lefebvre and his wisdom.”
Yes, absolutely — my sentiments, exactly!
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Miley
Thank you so much. That wonderful quote resolves my confusion, so I will now get out of the boat where I was formerly rowing with Naomi and Editor (but I won’t try to walk on water yet).
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Torkay
You are very welcome. It can become rather confusing!
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Torkay, back-tracking somewhat, and much as I love Editor and you, I have just jumped out of the boat. Pity, because I can’t swim!
I have had a lot of difficulty with the fact that very occasionally, and with full knowledge of the dangers it presents to faith (but presumptuously considering that my old Missal and much study will protect me), I have gone, metaphorically kicking and screaming, to a Novus Ordo Mass. I have never been persuaded by wiser bloggers that I should never go, for I clung to the bare ‘validity’ of this Mass coupled with the fact that the Church commands me to go to Mass on Sundays. And if that was all that was available, then I had to put up with it.
Since finishing Father Kramer’s ‘Suicide…..’, reading much more slowly than Ed, I have been convinced at last by his words, quoted by her:
(It) is totally and gravely illicit, since the Church’s moral doctrine, set forth by Pope Innocent XI (see Footnote 80, p.97) clearly forbids probably valid sacraments. Thus, it is gravely sinful (in the objective moral order) for anyone to celebrate or attend Mass when the vernacular expression “for all” is used in the consecration of the chalice, since that formula of consecration is not certainly valid.
I always knew that the NO is not always valid, dependant on various factors, but was unaware of Pope Innocent XI’s forbidding of ‘probably’ valid sacraments.
I have always been worried by the fact that NO priests celebrating the traditional rite use pre-consecrated Hosts from the ciborium, but have received in spite of the mental reservation. Refusal to do so is obviously a consequence of the above realisation (at last).
Athanasius, perhaps you will explain to my dog why, when her flyball tournaments fall on Sunday, even though they very rarely do, she will no longer be able to compete. Grrrrrrr. I’d keep out of her doghouse for the nonce.
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PS Posts crossed as usual. Hope you don’t need my lifebuoy, Torkay.
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Naomi
You may inform your doggy that she is perfectly free to indulge in Sunday flyball tournaments, but not those that take place in the local parish church!!
I urge all bloggers to read this astounding talk of Archbishop Lefebvre from 1975. This Archbishop of the Church was truly raised up and blessed by God.
http://www.sspxasia.com/Documents/Archbishop-Lefebvre/Luthers-Mass.htm
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26 years ago when I was 15 years old I had a most peculiar and eerie vision. I was wakening during the night half a sleep by what was a weird vision. It wasn’t like watching something happen like when someone watches a television show but as though through one’s own eyes.
Pursued by a hostile mob in a half ruined city I found myself in a stately place. It was very urgent in my thoughts; I must retrieve an important scroll. Frightened I suddenly came upon some large beautiful doors with glass panes, with white curtains covering each door. I burst through the doors into a large study and there I found a desk; it appeared to belong to someone of importance.
Without delay I ran toward the desk and looking down found a rolled up parchment placed on top. At that I grabbed the paper and ran out of the study. Half awake from this dream or vision I heard an external gentle bass voice repeating these words in Latin: Dominus vobiscum, and I think the other words were Et cum spiritu tuo for at the time I did not know any Latin but I remember the phrases.
I am not quite sure what to make of this or the purpose but this vision but it repeated at least three times while I was still a wake.
I’ve told some friends and family members about the dream and no one could tell me what it meant. Then about 20 years ago I had another dream this time of Our Blessed Lady ever virgin. Oh how in truth I wish I could describe it to you. At once I woke up and was compelled to turn on the television and I came across Fr.Gruner’s T.V. show “Fatima the Moment Has Come” and ever since in my poor way have been trying to help Our Lady.
By the way I am no one without God and Our Lady. Please pray for my poor family – my wife and I are blessed with two sons Nicholas (10) and Anthony (6) our oldest son has severe autism.
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weedsbegone
I do not have the authoirty to declare on anything you describe. The Church alone legislates in such matters.
All I can say for certain is that we each owe great thanks to God and Our Lady for leading us in the ways of grace by whatever means they have chosen to do so in our individual cases. You are perfectly free to hold personally that these inspirations you speak of, particularly the latter, were God’s and Our Lady’s interventions in your case.
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N O T I C E . . .
For those of you who took the paperback version of Antonio Socci’s The Fourth Secret of Fatima, please note that Father Gruner did warn us on Saturday, that Socci is not right about everything but that his book is valuable because his central thesis, the focus of his research, is correct – that is, that the Third Secret has still not been fully divulged by the Vatican.
A reader has also suggested that I warn bloggers that Socci is into Medjugorje, so he is clearly not reliable, except in his research into the Third Secret (remember, he initiated his research project in order to prove that the Vatican HAD revealed the Third Secret but had to admit that the evidence proved otherwise).
So, be aware of these facts when reading his work – and warn others if you pass on his book.
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During the week-end I asked a life-long Traditional Catholic for his view of the validity etc of the Novus Ordo Mass.
His response was very clearly put and I take the liberty of quoting it here in the hope that it might be helpful:
Quote:
“Nervous Ordo and validity.
There is a difference between being valid and being licit.
Licit means that it is in accord with the law.
Valid, in regard to the Mass and the context being discussed, means that transubstantiation has taken place due to the proper words, matter and intention of the priest and The Sacrifice has been offered.The intentions of the priest must be in conformity with those of the Church, namely, to change the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ to make Christ present on the altar and to offer them as The Sacrifice of Christ.
The priest must be properly ordained, otherwise he is not a priest.A Mass is licit if it has been offered by one who has the authority to do so and using the forms approved by the Church. For a priest this means being in union with his bishop and for a bishop it means being in union with the Pope.
An apostate Freemason priest can say the words of consecration at a “black Mass’ with the intention of making Christ present, which occurs. Obviously, the intention is to blaspheme God and not to offer the perfect sacrifice.
Archbishop Lefebvre accepted that the Novus Ordo Mass can be valid.
However, because the words and rubrics of the NO Mass are Protestant and thus very weak in regard to sacrifice, they do not safeguard the intentions of the Church. Also, because the training of priests was defective, there would be an increasing likelihood that the priest will lose sight of the intentions of the Church. This means that he will say the Mass without an effective intention and so fail to offer the Sacrifice of the Mass. Seeing pictures of some NO Masses, it is reasonable to conclude that the priest has lost his way and is making it up.For me, the simplest comment is that the Traditional Mass comes from the Apostles, whereas, the NO Mass is a man made concoction.
Prior to Vat II, it did not exist. It was not even mandated by Vat II. It was simply foisted upon the Church by sleight of hand under a weak Pope. There is not a single document or law that places the least obligation on anyone to offer it or attend it. Any bishop who thinks otherwise is abusing his authority. A bishop can not give THE liturgical act of the Church a greater authority than has been given to it by the Church. The only authority attached to the NO Mass is a permission to use it, full stop.
Re-read chapter 4, “The Mass of all times versus the Mass of our time”, in the Archbishop’s book, “An open letter to confused Catholics”.
Unquote.
He subsequently added that if the conciliar priest saying the Novus Ordo Mass does not believe in the Real Presence, then transubstantiation will not take place.
Unfortunately I am quite unable to persuade him to contribute to the blog – such a loss.
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leprechaun
I congratulate your traditional friend on this perfectly accurate and concise explanation. This was Archbishop Lefebvre’s position, which I fully accept and concur with.
Is there a particular reason why your friend refuses to contribute to the blog?
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Dear Athanasius,
Thank you for your prayers. My hope from my last post is to share how I came to learn about Fatima. God and our blessed Mother will help each one of us step by step on the narrow road of life even if we take a misstep our blessed Mother is there to guide us back. Have hope in our Lady of Fatima that she’ll help restore the true Latin mass once again to holy Mother Church.
By the way to you Athanasius and to the other bloggers on this blog the writings are tremendous they help my morale to know I am not alone even though I am surrounded by anti-Fatima foes. Keep praying for our Holy Father and Bishops that they may soon be free to consecrate Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary.
One more thing, weeds are what I call the Freemasons and other enemies of holy Mother Church thus weedsbegone. If I don’t write any more it’s just that I must help my wife with our oldest son Nick but I’ll keep on checking in from time to time to read the better blogs, God bless!
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weedsbegone
Thank you for that thoughtful post. I’m sure that all here will understand the time you must spend with your son. God bless him and all you loved ones. We’ll hear from you again when time allows.
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Athanasius,
You ask why my friend the lifelong Traditional catholic does not contribute to the blog. He just smiles at the idea, but I think his view is that the Teachings of the Church of all time, the Scriptures, the content of the Magisterium and the SSPX are all available to those who, in common with myself, were moved by the Holy Ghost to “Seek, and ye shall find”, as indeed I did, and that they should go and look for themselves.
His clarity of expression and orthodox views would be an added asset to this blog, but he seems disinclined to waste his time arguing with those who will not see, as I have found out to my own distress in trying to get erstwhile friends still in the conciliar Church to at least consider some of the reasons why their souls are in danger.
I am reminded of a proverb, and a little known last line:
You can take a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink. What to do? You make him thirsty!
I’m off to mend the hole in my bucket.
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leprechaun, your friend might find himself in a spot of bother at his judgement trying to explain his reluctance to evangelise. I, for one, am less than impressed by his rationale.
If everyone took up that position, the Jehovah’s Witnesses would have a free hand. No, there’s something very basic missing in his thinking and Catholicity – oh yes, I know what it is…
zeal.
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Not quite true Madam Editor. He played a major part in making an SSPX chapel available in the area, he has provided two sons as SSPX priests and a daughter as a Carmelite Nun, and he is a source of wisdom on all matters concerning the Church. He just doesn’t care to waste his time on arguing with those who wilfully don’t want to hear.
He may possibly be short on patience with the likes of some who feature briefly on this blog, but to say he is short of zeal is somewhat uncharitable, if I may be so bold.
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Leprechaun
I don’t think arguing with those who will not see is a waste of time. I for one was just like that and it was only through people on this blog arguing with me that I embraced Tradition.
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leprechaun
Sadly, there are too many traditional Catholics who think like your friend. I’m sure he’s a perfectly good man, but he is insular and really should display a little more concern for his confused brothers and sisters in the Faith. It is not for him to judge who is worthy of counsel and who is not. His role is to show charity to all souls and try as best he can to bring as many as he can to Our Lord through sacred tradition.
I’m sorry to say that his attitude puts me in mind of the man with only one talent in the Gospel who runs away and buries it. The Catholic Church is militant, not insular. He will doubtless get some nasty treatment on this blog from the occasional troll, but who knows how many souls he could influence in the right way if he only put in the effort. He might even influence one of our regular trolls!!
As regards his good works for the local SSPX church, these are very praiseworthy. However, he would do well to recall the words of Our Lord, who said something like: “If you do good only to those who do good to you, then where is your reward. Do not the Pharisses do as much?” I fear your friend is very misguided in his views.
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It takes all sorts to make a world. Hunter/gatherers would not have much success were it not for those back at base who sharpen their arrows ready for the next foray.
Different people use their talents in different ways appropriate to their calling.
I trust that Our Lord will look kindly upon my friend when his time comes. -
leprechaun
I’m in no position to judge whether your friend should participate in our discussions or not, but perhaps he has failed to consider that making arguments for the Church, esp. to those of ill will, is one very good way of clarifying one’s own thinking, in order to be a more effective apologist.
And speaking of trolls, the Three Billy Goats Gruff would not have made it across that bridge had they not acted in concert…
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Hello Athanasius
How I wish you could be the next Pope. Such clarity of purpose is greatly to be admired. Would that the Holy Father could demonstrate more of it.
Hello Tomas
Thank you for your gentle post. As my friend is now in his eighties I think he has got his thoughts fairly clear and I propose to switch off the spotlight and return the emphasis to the subject of this thread, i.e., the success of Target Scotland.
I understand that Fr Grüner’s talk at Burghclere was attended by about a hundred people including some from our local SSPX chapel, and it is heart-warming to see that his Mission is being well supported.
May he go from strength to strength.
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I’ll second that, leprechaun, the Fatima crusade I mean, not me for Pope!! Can you imagine me as Pope? They’d be demanding my head on a platter after about one hour!!
God knows, I have enough to answer for as a layman without having to answer for the whole of Christendom. God help and strengthen our Pope.
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As long as an hour, Athanasius? You are not seeing yourself as the man I thought you were.
I must press on with Fr. Kramer’s book on “The Suicide of altering the Faith in the Liturgy”, and then watch the DVD that I have just received from Madam Editor and then I must read “True Devotion to Mary” by St. Louis De Montfort which I bought this week-end.
And even then, I still won’t feel competent to contribute much to this blog.
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leprechaun
The mere presence of your charitable Catholic spirit is quite a substantial contribution to this blog – a spirit, I might add, which I have yet to acquire.
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leprechaun
You contribute more than substantially to this blog already. You may not be in a position to contribute every day, but what you do contribute is very helpful to all, myself included.
I see you do what all Catholics should be doing, e.g., educating yourself with good books and a good DVD. I am particularly fond of “True Devotion to Mary.” How I wish all Catholics would pick that book up!
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Osmosis, Tomas, osmosis. Keep reading the blog.
Athanasius, I can recommend the DVD to all who love Our Lady. I have just finished watching it. How Rome can have the bare-faced effrontery not to reveal the secret in view of the pressure upon them astonishes me.
All the bloggers ought to order a copy from Madame Editor. At £3.00 per copy plus £2.00 p & p in the U.K. it is an absolute gift.
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leprechaun
I already have the DVD and have watched it. I agree with your conclusion. Come on bloggers, dig deep!!!
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Yes, Father Gruner has left some boxes of DVDs to be sold here, and you are welcome to send for them if you enclose a cheque for £5 to cover the cost of the DVD itself plus posting and packaging.
However, may I ask you not to send for several copies please. It is a good idea to invite people to your home for a snack/meal or whatever, for the purpose of showing the film. That way, no need to send for multiple copies to distribute.
If you do ask for more than one copy, would you please take that into account when writing your cheque, please and thank you!
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Editor
What is the DVD price in worthless American dollars?
leprechaun
Are you going to perform the Consecration to the Immaculate Heart when you’ve finished reading that book? (It’s a 33-day process, if I remember correctly)
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Torkay,
I think it would be simpler for you to order the DVD from the Fatima Center in Canada. The exchange rates are all over the place and we are having to pay out money for these postings from our newsletter fund until we recoup the money. We don’t really like doing that.
I’ve already sent two DVD’s overseas and the postage cost more than the £3 for the DVD itself! Mind you, that would be because I included a pamphlet or two to buffer the DVD.In any case, the DVD can be ordered from the Fatima website and costs $9.95 http://fatimashoppe.org/sub-category.asp?scID=41&cID=31
I think the £3 charge here was really meant for the Conference attenders and they were left for us to distribute because they didn’t arrive until the day after the Conference.
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Tomas
I try to be a good servant, even though sometimes the spirit is willing and the flesh is weak, but I shall have a clearer answer to your question when I have completed reading the book.
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I’m afraid I’ve had no opportunity to comment since the conference due to various other matters, so apologies for my belated offering to the thread.
Needless to say it was an excellent occasion, well organised and with speakers of the highest authority on Fatima.
Fr. Kramer set excellent context with thorough historical background and thought provoking facts, such as heresy existing from apostolic times, as the docetist heresy denying the incarnate nature of Christ.
What is truly alarming is how the paganist doctrine of the elect can be traced well into the pre-Christian era, with the secret initiation ceremonies of the Freemasons finding common heritage with Judaic/Mosaic custom.
But the scriptural basis for Our Lady’s role in crushing satan ‘I shall place enmity between you and the woman and she shall crush your seed’ makes Fatima the inevitable and necessary prophecy of what is to come.
Telling is that Our Lady stated ‘the devil is in a mood to engage in a decisive battle’, one that he knows is already lost in his blind rage and despair at being condemned by God for eternity, seeking only the damnation of other souls.
In charting the common heritage of Freemasonry (and implicitly protestantism), Fr. Kramer neatly summarised the deification of man which has gradually and consistently polluted the world, Belloc’s ‘failure of human nature’ in falling into heresy.
This summary of Fr. Kramer neatly introduced an opening observation in Fr. Gruner’s address, that such humanism had progressed gradually in past centuries, though accelerating in recent times:
The great schism in 1054 led to the Orthodox retaining faith in God, Christ, Church but rejecting the Pope;
Luther in 1517 retained God and Christ but rejected the Church and Pope;
Freemasonry in 1717 professed faith in God, rejecting Christ, the Church and Pope; and
Bolshevism in 1917 rejecting God, Christ, Church & Pope.
God willing Our Lady’s Immaculate Heart will triumph before 2017 or 2117.
I realise some of the above is in a sense a departure from the essence of Fatima, however the context is important in considering the rationale for God’s anger with humanity and any objective analysis, as Antonio Socci learned, leads to the inevitable conclusion that action on the part of the Papacy and Episcopy is essential.
Chilling last thought that Pope Benedict feared he would pay for Summorum Pontificum with his life, truly reflecting that he appreciates the evil presence within the Church. That he did the right thing, in the right manner (i.e. bypassing the liberal structures in Rome) despite such a fear and understanding reveals him to be prepared for martyrdom. That if God so calls him he will have fixed the Church firmly on the road to tradition in so doing.
Excellent event, with a tremendous amount of free literature. I too wait in eager anticipation of the ‘next’ one!
PS I know Tomas de Torkay asked if the talks would be made available online, so sorry if I’ve missed the answer but if this is possible it would be a tremendous resource. I have found similar audio on Pro Ecclesia’s site very informative now decades after the events took place.
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Crossraguel, many thanks for your excellent post, however belated. You’ve already explained your tight work and family schedule, so your lengthy and very detailed post on the Conference is very much appreciated.
I believe Andrew (Fr Gruner’s assistant on the day) was taping the talks so they may be available from the Fatima Center. Our resources are very limited, so think yourself lucky you had a roof over your head, never mind tapes and videos of the event!
Father Gruner has now, literally, taken flight. He left Glasgow Airport this afternoon to return to Canada. His visit south was successful and I’m sure he returns home well satisfied with his time in the UK
Thanks to all of you who attended and who have helped create a very positive record of the Conference via this thread.
God bless you, one and all!
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Editor,
While following the debates and discourses by your bloggers closely and with interest over the last several days as with regards to the validly or the heretical status of the Novus Ordo when the Eucharist is confected by the Priest Pro Multis etc (for all or for many) compared with the certainly of the Classical Traditional Roman Rite! One of issues that I cannot seem to get my poor Geordie Jarrovian head around for years is as regards to what goes on in the mind of the celebrant, especially by the bi-liturgical priests?Therefore, here am I not speaking of the liturgics of the celebrant of the solely Novus Ordo Rite, who will not touch Catholic Tradition with the Liturgical Barge Pole so to speak: as the Traditional Laity knows exactly where they stand; Totally ostracized! I know there are many good priests who are doing their very best to follow the Holy Father’s directives and mandate to implement his Motu Propio SP or the Indult Mass, and to accommodate the the Traditional Catholic,
However, maybe it is about time time these good priests stood up to their specific Ordinary of the Diocese and say “enough is enough” and refuse to continue to implement these liturgical abuses, that seem to be gathering daily momentum or is it simply a case of (I will remain the Vicar of Bray Sir), I sincerely hope not!
Jarra
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jarra lad, we are hoping and praying that in the not too far distant future, some – or even one – Scots priest will stand up and be counted, insist on offering only the traditional Mass. It won’t be easy, but I believe Our Lord warned us along those lines!
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I am reliably informed that the head liturgist of the Russian Orthodox church has had a right go at Rome over the Western Liturgy. I don’t know the details yet, but he apparently said it was a complete botch job, or words to that effect.
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Editor
Just wanted to say I thoroughly enjoyed looking at the Conference pictures on the website….though I have a feeling you are going to ask me why I am just now looking at them…..
Wasn’t that the same room as the May 08 Conference?
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Yes, Torkay, same hotel, same room, fewer stalls to fit in the many more people in attendance. It was actually rather stuffy at times and we had to open all the doors. Such a hot day after around 3 weeks of constant rain. That was a truly glorious weekend in more than one way!
The photos are great although it is a pity they don’t capture the many young people who were there. I didn’t think to alert the photographer. It would have been good to have had some photos of them but the main thing is they absolutely loved the day and seemed to understand the gist of it all. One teenager asked Father Gruner to give her a blessing “to make me a strong Catholic” – God bless her.
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Ath
Are you allowed to reveal your source for the above info? (R.O. head liturgist on the N.O.) A passing soldier? Cell phone text message? Cigarette salesgirl? Still small voice within?
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I have now posted a copy of the DVD The Secret Still Silenced, to every Scottish Bishop.
There does seem to be something wrong with the post, though, so you might add a prayer that the packages reach their destinations, to the prayer I trust you will all offer, that the DVD’s touch the souls and consciences of the 8 bishops about to receive them – Post Office, as I say, willing…
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editor
Well done, editor! That’s another spiritual work of mercy clocked up in your favour. Let’s hope that DVD does move the bishops to change. My main worry is that they will actually take the time to watch it. We can but hope.
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Archbishop Conti has a right cheek. He has presided over one disaster after another and yet this schismatic prelate thinks that we should ask his permission! Cheek!
I think Archbishop Conti must be so frightened of the truth about Fatima and the crisis in the Church that he is going into attack mode and trying to pull rank. I’m surprised he didn’t send his big bully boy thug of a Chancellor, Monsignor Peter Smith, to try and block entry to the Crown Plaza.
A wee word in your ear, Your Grace. Sort out the perverted priests in your diocese, find the missing priests of your diocese, scrap those idiotic plans to turn Saint Andrew’s Cathedral into a hideous, plastic italian, ‘Made in China’ piece of rubbish. Then go to Confession, preferably to a Traditional priest, and repent of the shame you have brought on Scotland in all the years you’ve been a bishop. Hopefully your penance will be to resign and retire to a nice wee villa in Tuscany. When you get there, read some of Father Gruner’s works and then write to him and ask for his forgiveness for the slanderous comments.
Oh and before I forget, never darken the door of Scotland again! Arrivederci! Ciao!
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I agree with you Petrus, they have an absolute cheek. They don’t have the authority to grant or deny permission for lay people to hold events in hotels. They are pretending that they have, just like they are pretending that Fr Gruner is suspended when even a cursory glance at the facts would dispel that myth.
They DO indeed have the authority to defrock priests who have committed unspeakable crimes against God and nature throughout the diocese, have caused such harm to individuals, and brought grave scandal on the Church.
Get your house in order Your Lordship, and stop persecuting Catholics who just want to live the Faith as it has been handed down.
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Petrus, look, I hope you don’t mind me getting a bit personal, but shouldn’t you get yourself on an assertiveness course one of these fine days?
I mean, you need to stop shilly-shallying around and learn to get straight to the point. Say what you mean and mean what you say, Petrus. All this diplomatic, dancing round the mulberry bush tact, isn’t really helpful….
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See the Fatima website for links to our Conference report and photographs. I’ve had an email this morning from their webmaster, Andrew, who accompanied Fr Gruner on his trip and they had a wonderful time, Andrew assured me.
http://www.fatima.orgSo, thanks, again, to everyone who attended and supported the Conference. God bless.
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Petrus
Sounds to me as though Abp. Conti has a LEFT cheek, not a right cheek. And then there’s Editor, who has a tongue in cheek.
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Torkay, you missing that doghouse again?
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Editor – shall I start having all my mail forwarded there again?
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Yip, Torkay, I think you should get that redirection of mail form from the Post Office without delay!
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Here’s a very interesting film due for release on 13th October http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=17273
Torkay, will you see it and report back?
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Here is a link to a short documentary on Mrs Deirdre Manifold
http://vimeo.com/6851566
“Directed by Ger Consadine, the documentry ‘Deirdre’s Passsions’ is a short which tells the story of the Galway author Deirdre Manifold , one-time girlfriend of the notorious Irish poet, Patrick Kavanagh . The film was screened at the Way Out West segment of the Galway Film Fleadh”We have the Traditional Mass most Sundays at her home. I’m sure ye will enjoy the link.
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