Below is an extract from an article, ironically entitled Call for a return to Faith and spiritual obedience published in today’s Scottish Catholic Observer, penned by the eminently disobedient, Bishop Philip Tartaglia. The SCO has yet to move into the 21st century; they do not publish all articles online (they struggle with sales in parishes, obviously) and so only the introduction to Bishop Tartaglia’s article is published on the SCO website, with an instruction to buy the hard copy if you want to read the rest. Don’t bother. Here’s (most of) the rest…
Bishop Tartaglia in his own – quite shocking – words…
“… Media coverage of the Pope’s visit has chosen to highlight liturgical issues, as if to suggest that preparation for the Pope’s visit will be marred by damaging splits in the Catholic community over the liturgy… The truth is that priests are not breaking down bishops’ doors to ask for training to celebrate Mass in the extraordinary form nor are many of them freely choosing to celebrate Mass in that form, as they might do, if they wished. Chatting to one of my younger priests about this matter, he said to me that he had no inclination to say Mass in the old form, even if he respected it for what it had been to many generations of Catholics. He said that he got his Faith and vocation to the priesthood from his experience of the Mass as it is, and he was happy with that. (Ed: now there’s a very sensible priest. He knows the mind of his bishop! If I thought for a second that priests were career-minded, I’d say “there goes a potentially very successful career priest!” The fact is that the bishop is supposed to be a leader: wherever he leads, the clergy will follow. Bishop Tartaglia has made his views known on the old rite Mass. Goodness, given how open he has been with lay correspondents, revealing his dislike, to put it mildly, of the TLM, one can only imagine what he says to his priests on the topic…)
It also has to be said that there is little spontaneous demand from Catholics for Mass in the extraordinary form. Such provision as there is, some of it long-standing, centrally located and prime-timed on a Sunday morning, is vastly under-used. Why would bishops put pressure on priests to celebrate a form of Mass they do not want to celebrate and for tiny numbers of the faithful too, when most parishes only have one priest who is fully occupied on Sundays and holy days providing Mass in the ordinary form? It just does not seem to make pastoral sense. (Ed: well the bishops thought nothing of making priests say a Mass that nobody had asked for, a Mass, moreover, concocted by a Freemason priest with the help of 6 Protestant Ministers. Nobody asked for that, if I recall. I remember clearly being one of those faithful who was open mouthed when the fact that we were getting a “new Mass” was announced. I also remember being open mouthed when priests who felt they could not abandon the old rite were persecuted and punished for their trouble. So, don’t gimme, “can’t force my priests to say the old Mass”. You forced plenty to say the new).
In my experience as a bishop, the case for Mass in the extraordinary form in Scotland is seriously weakened by militant ultra-traditional groupings (Ed: plural? really? Who are they?) who propagate the false doctrine that the Mass in the ordinary form and Mass in the extraordinary form are not one and the same Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and that Mass in the extraordinary form is superior to the ordinary form, which should be suppressed. They explicitly deny the teaching of the Second Vatican Council on ecumenism and on religious freedom. (Ed: these “teachings” are not binding on the faithful. They are novelties condemned, consistently, by previous popes).They also frequently and egregiously disrespect the memory of Pope John XXIII, Pope Paul VI and Pope John Paul II, and have the nerve to express huge reservations about the person and ministry of Pope Benedict XVI. (Ed: only if and when we attack the Petrine Ministry, may you criticise us. We are entitled to express, as robustly as we wish, our concerns about these Vatican II popes who have introduced errors into the Church. Thankfully, none of these errors have been pronounced binding on the faithful, so we remain loyal to the papacy and always will, for Christ will not abandon His Church – despite unfaithful popes and bishops.) What bishop would seriously want this kind of influence around his diocese? What bishop would want one of his priests or one of his parish churches associated with such a group? (Ed: what bishop would not alert his people to unsavoury groups working within the Church? Who are these “militant, ultra-traditional groups”? I’d like to know to warn my friends in Paisley to have nothing to do with them. It would be, clearly, a charity to name these groups, not to say, an important episcopal duty to protect the faithful.)
These groups sometimes contend that the problems in the Church come from the liturgy and that all will be well if we go back to an earlier form of the liturgy. This is an erroneous and somewhat simplistic analysis. (Ed: phew! That lets us off the hook. We hold to no such simplistic analysis. We know that the restoration of the Mass is but one part of the solution to this terrible Church crisis – see our threads on Professor Groome, re-ordering of sanctuaries, priesthood etc. Phew! For a minute I thought he was having a go at Catholic Truth…)
The problems in the Church today do not come from the liturgy; they come from a lack of Faith and a spirit of disobedience. (Ed: hear hear. But that disobedience includes the liturgy. Bishop Tartaglia knows perfectly well that there is extensive and illicit use of Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion at novus ordo Masses. That is blatant disobedience, never mind the hostile attitude towards the TLM).
And these are the result of hostile philosophical trends which originated in the 18th and 19th centuries, and which came to fruition in the 20th century. (Ed: Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion? Really?)
These trends developed while we were celebrating Mass in an older form. (Ed: Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion? Really?) Mass in the older form did not cause these trends nor prevent them developing. Similarly, Mass in the newer form did not cause the problems in today’s Church, even if the liturgy has sometimes focused these problems. (Ed: what does that mean?) Mass in whatever form nourishes the Faith of those who participate (Ed: I disagree. Didn’t nourish my faith at all, Quite the reverse) but may not prevent evil things from undermining the Church. Faith and holiness are the antidotes to the Church’s problems, not a wholesale return to an earlier form of the Mass. (Ed: the two things, “faith and holiness” are integral to the old rite Mass).
Of course, none of that is to contradict or gainsay the rightness or the wisdom of the Pope’s Motu Proprio Summorum Pontificum in which the Holy Father gives a very generous permission for the celebration of Mass in the extraordinary form. And where priests wish to celebrate Mass in that form, they may freely do so both privately and publicly. But, as I read the Pope’s words, permission stops short of promotion. (Ed: then please read it again, Bishop and put it together with the interview from Monsignor Guido Pozzo that I sent you in my letter dated 30 November, 2009, where it is made clear that the Pope wants the old rite Mass in every parish).
The Pope’s document places no obligation on bishops to promote Mass in the extraordinary form. Mass in the ordinary form must remain the norm for our liturgies. (Ed: we’ll see…) When he issued his Motu Proprio in July 2007, the Holy Father promised a review after three years. The time for that review must be soon. If it takes place, one of the things I would hope to see clarified is precisely this point about permission, provision and promotion.
In the meantime, I, as a bishop, would certainly not attempt to dissuade one of my priests who on his own initiative chose to introduce that form of the Mass into public worship of his parish. (Ed: that, frankly, I do not believe. Having read Bishop Tartaglia’s letters to two separate, unconnected individuals, telling them, in words of one syllable, what he thinks of the old rite Mass and their request for it in the diocese, I simply do not believe him. Let any Paisley priest come forward and prove me wrong. Give me concrete details of arrangements to learn the TLM and a date for your first TLM – I’ll make a point of attending it myself. I repeat, I do not believe, for a second, that Bishop Tartaglia would not seek to dissuade any priest of his, who wished to offer the TLM on a regular basis, in his parish). But so far none has, and I can see why; they don’t sense any personal spiritual need to do it and they do not recognise any compelling pastoral need to do so. But if that should change, I will be the first to take due cognizance of that fact.
This is not to say that there are no problems with liturgical practice in Scotland, a point well made by some commentators…At the same time, I distance myself from the allegation reported in the media coverage that Mass is commonly celebrated by Scottish priests in a casual or sloppy way. Priests do not routinely deny the Church’s Faith in their homilies. Priests do not routinely set up unworthy liturgies. My experience of priests in my own diocese and elsewhere is that they try to offer worship which is celebrated according to liturgical norms, which is devout, which communicates the mysteries of the Catholic Faith, which is accessible and participative, and which includes the best music they have in their parish resources. In my experience, priests want to bring Christ to their people in the liturgy and in their pastoral activity.The liturgy remains a work-in-progress (emphasis added) but, in the main, priests celebrate it well. (Ed: oh well, then, that’s OK – who cares if God is worshipped shabbily as long as “in the main” he is not thus insulted…) That’s why the people are not generally clamouring for something else. (Ed: they’re not clamouring for something else because they don’t know what else is available – since the bishops have made sure that Summorum Pontificum has been kept well away from parish bulletins, announcements, church websites etc.)
So, when the Pope comes, everyone can be certain that any liturgy that the Holy Father celebrates in Scotland will include the best music, the best ceremonial, and the best liturgical practice that we can manage. But above all, the Pope’s Mass will make the living Christ present o his people.
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The problems in the Church today do not come from the liturgy; they come from a lack of Faith and a spirit of disobedience.
Here’s a little newsflash for you, Bishop T: the Novus Ordo is itself the very embodiment of the spirit of disobedience. That is because it is Protestant.
And these are the result of hostile philosophical trends which originated in the 18th and 19th centuries, and which came to fruition in the 20th century.
…and which were incorporated into various Vatican II documents, thus creating a rupture with Tradition. Which prelate, present at Vatican II, boasted that the Council was “the French Revolution of the Church”?
I could dissect every single sentence of this utterly contemptible article, but why bother? All I need to do is to ask: is this fellow a shepherd, or one of the wolves?
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Torkay
If this is the fruits of a Doctorate in Theology then, well, doctorates aren’t all they are cracked up to be. This article is beyond belief. In fact, it would laughable, if it weren’t so tragic. To think this is “sound” bishop of Scotland! God help us all.
I’m really surprised at this part of the article:
“I distance myself from the allegation reported in the media coverage that Mass is commonly celebrated by Scottish priests in a casual or sloppy way. Priests do not routinely deny the Church’s Faith in their homilies. Priests do not routinely set up unworthy liturgies. My experience of priests in my own diocese and elsewhere is that they try to offer worship which is celebrated according to liturgical norms, which is devout, which communicates the mysteries of the Catholic Faith, which is accessible and participative, and which includes the best music they have in their parish resources.”
Now, I’m sorry, but Bishop Tartaglia has told lies here. Well, at the very least, he has been economical with the truth. Let me tell you why. I sent the bishop a very honest email, outlining my concerns regarding the dire state of the liturgy in the Diocese of Paisley. This was the bishop’s reply:
“I can see that you are looking for a celebration of Mass which is more profound and more devout than you are getting in your parish. I would not usually encourage people to desert their parish, but you have been so honest with me I appreciate what you are saying and I believe you are genuine.
So I suggest you go to another parish on a Sunday, perhaps St. Margaret’s in Johnstone or St. John Ogilvie’s in Erskine.
I think you will find that Father Burke and Father Brady will conduct the liturgy in a way which will more satisfy your expectations.
In the meantime, I will be doing my best to encourage worthy celebrations of Mass in line with liturgical discipline.”Not really a ringing endorsement of the priests of his diocese, is it? So, “My experience of priests in my own diocese and elsewhere is that they try to offer worship which is celebrated according to liturgical norms, which is devout, which communicates the mysteries of the Catholic Faith, which is accessible and participative, and which includes the best music they have in their parish resources. ” is clearly false. The bishop KNOWS the liturgy is dire and he knows his priests are disobedient.
The lesson, folks, is this: don’t believe everything you read, even if they come from the mouth of someone who wears a mitre.
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I meant to say, my wife and I went to Saint Margaret’s in Johnstone to see if it was all it’s cracked up to be. There was a wonderful organ and very talented organist who belted out “This Is The Day”. Fr Burke was accompanied by three girl altar servers. The homily was, well, sickly sweet. The congregation belted out “Yours as we stand at the table you set. Yours as we eat the BREAD our hearts can’t forget”. At the Eucharistic Prayer, Fr Burke invited all the children to come and sit round “the table of the Lord”
Thanks, but no thanks, My Lord.
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I cannot speak about Paisley Diocese, but Archbishop Conti, on the Archdiocesan website, says he reported to the Pope that:
“Priests… provide a liturgy in conformity with the Church’s directions…”
Yesterday I emailed his secretary pointing out that that is not the case, that His Grace would surely not wish to mislead the Holy Father on such an important issue and giving examples of one particular priest whose creative approach to liturgy led me to abandon a parish where I had been happy for a number of years. When I informed said priest that I would no longer be attending his Masses he replied that he took my description of his liturgy as “creative” as a compliment. I think he knew it wasn’t meant as such.
I have no strong desire to attend Mass in the extraordinary form but I do think I have a right as a Catholic to Mass “…in conformity with the Church’s directions”. I have discussed this with friends who often admit that they hadn’t known anything was amiss at Masses they attended. I hope the forthcoming new translation will be well publicised so that all Catholics will at least know when they are being short changed.
Eileenanne
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Eileenanne
Some very good points made. Well done for emailing the archdiocese. Did you get any reply?
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No reply yet obviously, but maybe once the office is back on Monday…
Eileenanne
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Sorry, I didn’t notice you only emailed yesterday. Please let us know how you get on..
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In addition to the great points that Torkay has affirmed, I dissected a few more fabrications from the Bishop:
“It also has to be said that there is little spontaneous demand from Catholics for Mass in the extraordinary form.”
This is untrue! The modernist clergy often try to suggest that the TLM is the Mass that no one wants. Yet, in November, 450 people attended the first TLM offered at the local parish where I reside. The weather was horrid with freezing temperatures and heavy rain. When are they going to grasp that traditional Catholics are even disposed to driving over two hours to attend a Traditional Liturgy.
“Why would bishops put pressure on priests to celebrate a form of Mass they do not want to celebrate.”
Selfish priests are the ones who refuse to provide for the spiritual needs of their flock just because their requests do not conform to his own personal preferences.
“groupings who propagate the false doctrine that the Mass in the ordinary form and Mass in the extraordinary form are not one and the same Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and that Mass in the extraordinary form is superior to the ordinary form”
They are NOT one and the same. The ancient Mass is Apostolic in origin, the other was established by a Protestant committee.
“ It is now theologically possible for Protestants to use the same Mass as Catholics” – Max Thurman- Protestant Theologian, who helped write the New Mass
Our Lady of Fatima warned us about a desolation of the faith through a new liturgy(new mass) and a new theology(ecumenism). That is why I will NEVER attend a Novus Ordo.!
http://fatimaondemand.org/en/index.php/special-productions/the-secret-still-silenced
”The problems in the Church today do not come from the liturgy, they come from a lack of faith and a spirit of disobedience.”
Actually Bishop Tartaglia, it is the priests and bishops who refuse to implement the papal motu proprio who are disobedient, not the faithful who have the right to request the extraordinary form of the Mass and the Sacraments.
***Until the Pope himself celebrates a Traditional Latin Mass, the Bishops and priests will not take him seriously.
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Petrus
Notice that the Bishop said that he “distanced himself” from allegations about poor celebrations of mass. Wonder why he didn’t say he DENIES those allegations? Perhaps he is a little too well-versed in Vatican II doublespeak, where the Christian faith SUBSISTS in the Roman Catholic Church…
Also, notice his dishonest distinction between “permission” and “promotion” of the traditional Mass. He knows full well that the Holy Father wants the TLM celebrated in every parish, in order to expose both priests and laity to the riches of tradition. How does he know that? Because that is what Pope Benedict said!
This is just a stalling tactic. Perhaps he is playing a waiting game, thinking that Pope Benedict will not be with us much longer and the next Pope will be much more liberal.
I revise downward my use of the word “contemptible” – this is appalling and horrifying. God help the faithful in his diocese.
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Eileenanne
Meant to say, good for you! Keep on his trail like a bloodhound after a hare!
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Miles Christi Sum,
I remember priests who didn’t want to say the new Mass when it was first introduced. They were given short shrift. These bishops are very selective in their decisions – you can force a priest to say the new Mass but not the old Mass.
Eileenanne, that was great to email the archdiocese, and I hope you will tell us the outcome.
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His Grace writes:
“Such provision as there is, some of it long-standing, centrally located and prime-timed on a Sunday morning, is vastly under-used.”
Sounds like a Council Leader justifying the proposed closure of Swimming pools or art classes for children. I can hear him saying “We do all we can to provide this service to the public despite all the calls on our resources but sadly we have no choice but to …”
But is any of this statement accurate?
Are there long-standing (what ever that means) TLMs in his Diocese?
Are they “prime-timed”? I assume that means they are at 9.00amWho ever heard of a Mass being “under-used”? I have heard of libraries being under-used but Masses?
One assists at Mass – one does not use Mass.
Does the good Archbishop think he is offering a “”public-service”? If so, maybe that is at the route of the problem.
Mass is not about educating the congregation or providing an opportunity for the community to gather or an opportunity for the choir to show their new repertoire.
It is Divine Service. An unbloody sacrifice – propitiatory for the living and the dead etc etc.
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PS: Tomas — Cardinal Suens French Revolution – do I get a prize?
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root NOT route.. ummmm typewriter gettting carried away…
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“I remember priests who didn’t want to say the new Mass when it was first introduced. They were given short shrift. These bishops are very selective in their decisions – you can force a priest to say the new Mass but not the old Mass.”
Rebel-
You make a very insightful and valid point!
I live three hours from an SSPX chapel, so I can’t get there every Sunday and I refuse to attend a Novus Ordo. I recently sent the Bishop an email requesting the Traditional Latin Mass, because when a new priest recently arrived, he took it away. The Bishop could prod the priest into allowing a TLM if he really wanted to. Here is the Bishops reply:
Dear *****
Thank you for your email referencing the celebration of the Latin Mass. I appreciate the spiritual value that you find in participating in the traditional Latin liturgy. Presently, it is celebrated weekly at the Cathedral but it certainly puts more demands on the staff.
Father ********* is the pastor of **** **** ******* and it is within his jurisdiction as to whether or not the traditional Latin Mass will be celebrated there.
I personally consider that the provision of Mass in the Spanish language, because of the vast number of Hispanics, is of greater pastoral importance than the provision of Mass in Latin.
Blessings to you and your family.
Bishop of ********
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PS- When the Bishop mentions the Cathedral, he is referring to the city in which he resides, not the church where I reside.
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Don’t all jump down my throat here….but I agree with a lot of what the Bishop has said.
I have read time and time again on this blog that the NO is ‘protestant’ and at times it has been described as ‘invalid’. And the tone, style and form of CT’s campaign has been such that it has provoked this response. The comments above just confirm the bishop’s view and do nothing to advance the provission of the EF. None of you will like it, but that’s my view.
Fact: If the EF is to be provided it will be celebrated by priests of the diocese. They cannot be compelled to do so, and this continual combative style will do NOTHING to achieving the aim.
Fact: Priests have a right (and indeed an obligation) to see to their own spiritual needs. They are not Mass ‘machines’. And I’m sorry, it does nothing to label them ’selfish’. If they feel that they cannot, for whatever reason, celebrate the EF then they should not be treated as some kind of second class priest.
Fact: The overall impression of CT among the clergy (and I’ve spoken to a great number of them) is that they are arrogant, militant and generally unsupportive of priests in their daily ministry. All they see and hear is one criticism after another, with no encouragement at all for their ministry which is often difficult and relentless. Whether this view is justified or not is another question, but if most of them feel this then there is clearly something wrong.
I would like the EF of Mass. But I am also quite content attending the NO and I recall that having expressed that view before I was subjected to comment after comment telling me how wrong I was. So it’s no suprise at all that having spent all this time hurling abuse at the NO that the priests take the view they do. So I understand why the bishop has said what he has. And for what’s its worth I think he was right to say it.
Who was he referring to in his article? Well, as the old saying goes, if the shoe fits…
I know my view won’t be welcome so please spare me the responses. Please just accept my view for what it is – a view – and allow it to stand in the midst of the many others that clearly express the opposite.
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Guardian Angel
If you didn’t want responses, then why did you post? That’s what a blog is for, posts and responses…..not soliloquies….
1. I would like to see your refutation, or the refutation of any clergyman, that the NO is Protestant. (Hint: be prepared for responses)
2. Please look up the definition of an invalid Mass, esp. the part about when the priest’s intentions do not match those of the Church.
3. What exactly is the “tone, style and form of CT’s campaign”? By any chance do you mean, “The Truth Hurts”?
4. As for priests not being compelled to celebrate the traditional Mass, I believe that comes under the heading of “obedience,” as in: they certainly would be compelled if their Bishop ordered them to do it! Obedience….you know, that word that Bishop Tartaglia used in his article…..
5. When priests’ daily ministry features vandalizing churches, vandalizing the liturgy, and vandalizing the Church’s moral teachings, then you can certainly count on this blog not supporting them. That’s sheer baloney – this blog supports orthodoxy, and always has. It will never support heresy and apostasy, under any guise.
The overall implication of your post is to call for a “kinder, gentler” CT. Perhaps you’d care to give us some specific examples of this approach? Let’s start with, say, the Bishop’s disgraceful – oops, I mean unfortunate – article. Or perhaps tearing out the altar rails – oops, I mean restructuring – at St. Catherine’s.
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GA
If you don’t like that I applied the tern SELFISH to these priests, then you’ll have to take it up with Father Trigillio, because these are his exact words below:
‘Secondly, he insults anyone who likes Latin as being ‘disobedient’ and being dissenters from the Second Vatican Council. Actually, priests and bishops who refuse to implement the papal motu proprio are the ones who are disobedient, not the faithful who have the right to request the extraordinary form of the Mass and the Sacraments. Selfish priests are the ones who refuse to provide for the spiritual needs of their flock just because their requests do not conform to his own personal preferences. The same papal authority which inaugurated the ordinary form of the Mass (Novus Ordo) also issued the motu proprio Summorum Pontificum. Benedict XVI is as much pope as was Paul VI. Both enjoyed full, immediate, universal and supreme authority, hence, one cannot pick and choose which pope or which act of papal authority to comply with and which to disregard.” — FATHER TRIGILLIO
http://www.renewamerica.com/columns/abbott/071017GA — If you acquire fulfillment attending an NO, then go for it, but please view this DVD from the Fatima symposium in Scotland and you might identify with those of us who reject the new mass.
http://fatimaondemand.org/en/index.php/special-productions/the-secret-still-silenced -
“The overall impression of CT among the clergy (and I’ve spoken to a great number of them) is that they are arrogant, militant and generally unsupportive of priests in their daily ministry. All they see and hear is one criticism after another, with no encouragement at all for their ministry which is often difficult and relentless. Whether this view is justified or not is another question, but if most of them feel this then there is clearly something wrong.”
GA — What clergy? Those who don’t support the TLM? Those who are disobeying the Pope in supressing the moto proprio? Sometimes false compassion can supress the truth from being spoken.
“Speak the truth with a thousand voices, it is silence that kills the world.”
St. Catherine of Sienna -
Good for you GA, I thought the same as I read through the thread. The Bishop has rightly contributed to the discussion initiated by recent press reports. And I do not have a doubt that many will welcome the chance to read these words from the Bishop in response to the reports in the secular press initiated by the ludicrous speculation surrounding the Pope’s visit to Scotland and the ‘apathy’ felt by many of the Scottish Bishops. MCS quotes St Catherine who advised us to “Speak the truth with a thousand voices…” as a justification for these posts perhaps?? This entire thread has contributions from less than half a dozen people! If I remember correctly, two or three or them don’t even live in Scotland, one is not writing to support the TLM and another of them makes a hobby of quoting personal correspondence (which I understand to be from some time ago. What is that all about? Does he keep a file of such letters to inject some ’spice’ into a flagging discussion?? ) And Editor, your comments about the Bishop’s thoughts on the old mass are amongst the most unfounded and distasteful I have ever read on any blog.
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“another of them makes a hobby of quoting personal correspondence (which I understand to be from some time ago. What is that all about? Does he keep a file of such letters to inject some ’spice’ into a flagging discussion?? )”
Wow, Annie2, let’s hope you never “get your gun”! Let me correct some errors in your combative post. For a start, I have quoted this correspondance because it shows that Bishop Tartaglia is a liar. He has deliberately misled the faithful with his disgraceful piece in the SCO. The bishop KNOWS that his priests celebrate Mass unworthily. He told me to abandon my own parish!!! WOW! He is now claiming that he hasn’t experienced shabby liturgy in his diocese. Lies, Your Lordship, lies! Many will welcome the chance to read the bishop’s words? I’m not sure that many will be pleased to read lies from a Catholic prelate, Annie.
Your second error is to say that this was sometime ago. Wrong, Annie. This correspondance is less than a year old. Your third error is to suggest that there are only a handful of people who will be affected by this thread. This blog is read by infinitely more people than contribute. Anyway, it’s less than a day old.
“And Editor, your comments about the Bishop’s thoughts on the old mass are amongst the most unfounded and distasteful I have ever read on any blog.”
Why don’t you back up your words, Annie. Prove that the editor’s words are unfounded. If, and when, you try to do this, let this “guy with the hobby” assure you that I will be ready to quote more correspondance to blow your claims out of the water.
Keep trying, Annie, and perhaps “the sun’ll come out tomorrow”.
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Annie2,
You say that this thread, with its 22 postings, features less than half a dozen contributors. As I recall, Our Lord began His Ministry with barely double that number of supporters Himself.
What if they had listened to the likes of yourself and just rolled over and gone back to their fishing? It would have been a lot easier than tackling the Jewish establishment, and the Roman Authorities, and the Church would have been smothered at birth.
That is what is happening to the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church of today. It is being smothered by the dead hand of Protestantism, aided and abetted my Freemasonry, and it is only determined opposition from the SSPX and Catholic Truth and a few other adherents to the Catholic Church and God Himself that the flame is being kept alive.
Bishop Tartaglia is kidding himself if he believes what he has written. May he have time to rethink his position before the hour of his death, otherwise he will have much to regret.
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GA and annie2,
I notice that you both think that the bishop was talking about Catholic Truth but he didn’t have the courage to name CT in his article. I wonder why not? Probably because he knows perfectly well that CT is in the right and he’s in the wrong.
Good on the editor for calling his bluff.
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I forgot to say that it is more than just not naming CT. Bishop Tartaglia gave the impression that there are several groups. He spoke of “groupings”. Not very honest if he means Catholic Truth. There’s no other group in Scotland that is like CT, so why is he saying there is?
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Rebel
Good point. The bishop’s dishonesty is staggering. Doesn’t the man have a mind? Doesn’t he realise that you can’t print fabrications and get away with it?
You thing that we must note is that it is clear from this article that Bishop Tartaglia is an avid reader of Catholic Truth.
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His thinly disguised attack on Catholic Truth indicates that the Bishops are becoming more and more concerned about the impact that Catholic Truth is having. Their initial tactic of studiously ignoring its existence would appear to be no longer effective and they obviously feel the need to go on the offensive. It seems to me that they have had their knuckles rapped during their recent meeting with the Pope. Bishop Tartaglia’s article is nothing more than a petulant and intellectually dishonest exercise in self justification.
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I’ve been a way for a while, but again on my return I find that it’s the same old dirges, the same whines from the same people.
What I really can’t get my head around is the bizarre thought processes of some of the regular contributors. For example, in a thread a while ago it was more or less stated that a Mass in the EF, celebrated by a OF priest in a ‘OF’Church that might even use Holy Communion from the tabernacle (consecrated earlier at an OF mass) would not be appropriate. As far as you were concerned the only possible option was to have an EF Church with an EF priest somewhere in each diocese.
However this whole thread is aimed at a Bishop of the Church, who you perceive to have somehow suppressed the EF. Should there be provision made in the Diocese of Paisley or any other Diocese for that matter would surely be celebrated by an OF priest in an OF Church, probably using OF consecrated communion… again as stated earlier not what you people want. So why the constant political soap box, the slandering of Prelates of the Church, perhaps your lives are that empty that you need to constantly belittle others?
Even when the EF is offered in every Diocese that will not reverse Vatican II, will you just find something else to moan about? As many of you have stated you have your SSPX chapel, and I would guess that if the EF was available in a Church near you, you would still choose to travel passed that Church to get to the SSPX, so respectfully why don’t you just stay there and let the rest of us ‘get on with it’ as they say!
Now don’t get me wrong, I am not so blinkered to accept that Vatican II is all great, there have been and are still problems, many of which Pope Benedict is trying to sort out. It seems apparent that one of the great tenents of V2 was the increased role of the laity, now we can argue all day about the pro’s and cons, however one undeniable aspect of increasing the role of the laity has now fostered into the fact that some laity believe that because they have read a book or two they have greater knowledge and understanding of the Church than those clergy who have spent 7+ years of study in Rome, some of whom have doctorates in Sacred Theology… but thats right as always you guys know best.
Before I’m accused of being some post V2 liberal etc I will set my stall out quite clearly – I do think that in some places the celebration of the OF has been less than proper (not deliberately I may add, but perhaps to a lack of quality in some priests), however I have also been to a number where the OF is celebrated in the proper manner. I have also attended a few EF celebrations, and honestly I can tell you I feel no more or less spiritually fulfilled at these than at properly celebrated OF.
I find it abhorrent but again not surprising that one of your posters launches another diatribe towards Bishop Philip, this time accusing him of being a liar. However if you actually read what the Bishop has said “My experience of priests in my own diocese and elsewhere is that they try to offer worship which is celebrated according to liturgical norms, which is devout”
I think the Bishop has been rather clever in his wording, of course he is not going to publicly criticise his Clergy. He has said that his priests “try to offer worship…” that brings me back to an earlier point that perhaps some of the priests of today lack quality but they try to do their best.
For the record, I would like to see the EF offered in the Diocese, including a full Solemn High Mass, as certainly I feel that the ceremonial aspect is important, and what the some priests of the Diocese could do with some input on. In my short lifetime (purely V2) I have seen some of the ceremonial in some places OF decrease dramatically since ‘I was a boy’.
However the chances of seeing it soon are almost gone, Bishop Philip had asked to be informed should any priest want to train and offer the EF. I personally know three priests who indicated they would be interested and had the support of their Bishop. On further contemplation two decided against, as they felt that unfortunately the EF would be synonymous with groups like CT and their ‘tactics’ (bitter diatribes etc).Add this to the public discussion of private communications with the Bishop, you can’t blame them for being wary. The third priest is still keen and looking to be trained at some point in the future… it would also be helpful that when quoting private correspondence on a public forum that you have your details correct.. there never has been a St John Ogilvie’s in Paisley Diocese.
Again no doubt I will be castigated as a ‘Bishop Philip’ apologetic etc etc. Perhaps he is waiting for ‘the big move’ and then he may show a more traditional (CT pleasing ?) hand ? After all his close personal friend is none other than the prefect of the Apostolic Signatura, who was a co-consecrator at Bishop Philip’s Ordination!
In His short time in the Diocese he has unfortunately been vilified on forums like this, by people like Ed and Petrus, however the facts speak for themselves, the standard of liturgy emanating from the Bishop’s celebrations is greatly improved (we just need that to filter to some of his priests) and also Seminarians have multiplied five fold in His time in charge of the Diocese… hardly a bad record.
In conclusion I would like to thank Petrus, Ed and any of the remaining court jesters for setting back the provision of the EF in Paisley Diocese quite dramatically. If you had managed to butt out and remain living in your wee SSPX wonderland, we might actually have had more than one priest in the Diocese offering EF… but again you people know best!
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Nolite Timere
The reference to ‘Saint John Ogilvie’ was the bishop’s mistake, not mine. You seem to know an awful lot about the goings on in the diocese. Interesting.
By the way, I think it’s lowering standards to the lowest form if the bishop was ‘clever’ with his words. Being deliberately ambiguous is not a good quality for a prelate. Then again, this embodies the ’spirit of VII’. The bishop should be ashamed of his article.
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Forgive the language. But who the hell is this bishop trying to kid? And all this talk about loyalty the the Holy Father – is he real.
Let me say I am not a member of St Pius X, and have had many disagreements with St Pius X, so I attend the Novus Ordo. Now I will not say that the priests celebrate Mass in a disrespectul way, that is the usual red herring we have been hearing for 40 years or so, but the fact is that many Catholics have lost the sense of awe in the Blessed Sacrament and approach Mass in a very disrespectful way.
But the heart of the matter is the pulling down of altar rails, the removal of the Blessed Sacrament to side altars, and forcing the people to just stand behind one another and take Communion in the hand without any sign of reverence has been one of the main factors in emptying the pews.
The Blessed Sacrament does not seem to have any meaning for the priests who shun Catholic devotions and Adoration. That is why the Pope re-introduced the Latin Mass. He wanted people to experience reverence. His hope was that one Mass would affect the other. As for Loyalty to Rome, at this time the Archbishop of Glasgow has invited from Boston College a Professor Thomas Groome, who wants married proests, homosexual priests, who does not accept Church teaching on Infallibility but believes everyone should have a say, what he represents as the `sensus fidelium`.
Boston College encourages gay and transgender groups to join them and when one Professor recently defended Catholic marriage the faculty set up a petition since this offended the gay pupils. In other wards the Archbishop of Glasgow is putting his fingers up to Rome. Loyalty? I am sorry, Bishop, it is true. You cannot fool all of the people all of the time.
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Nolite Timere
You seem to have mixed feelings about what this blog is getting at, which is, a corrupt clergy who have lost their faith, and who are therefore leading the laity down the same corrupted path. A few thoughts on your post of 1:47:
in a thread a while ago it was more or less stated that a Mass in the EF, celebrated by a OF priest in a ‘OF’Church that might even use Holy Communion from the tabernacle (consecrated earlier at an OF mass) would not be appropriate.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe the concern here was for the validity of the Consecration in the OF, a concern based on the very real question of whether the intentions of many OF priests are aligned with the intentions of the Church.
However this whole thread is aimed at a Bishop of the Church, who you perceive to have somehow suppressed the EF.
Ample and sufficient evidence has been presented repeatedly on this blog that the TLM has indeed been suppressed in Bishop T’s diocese – moreover, his dishonest article is further evidence of this! Have you been paying attention? And if you have concrete evidence to the contrary, rather than vague tales about one interested priest, please present it.
Should there be provision made in the Diocese of Paisley or any other Diocese for that matter would surely be celebrated by an OF priest in an OF Church, probably using OF consecrated communion… again as stated earlier not what you people want.
Did you perhaps notice Editor’s blog headline? “Mass in Sacred Heart”? Do you think Editor would have publicized this Mass, celebrated in an OF parish I believe, if such a setting were “not enough”? Would you prefer a headline that said “EF in an OF Parish: Proceed At Your Own Risk”?
So why the constant political soap box, the slandering of Prelates of the Church, perhaps your lives are that empty that you need to constantly belittle others?
Please explain to us how it is slander to point out and object to obvious lies. And speaking of belittling others, who was it that described Catholic Truth as a “militant ultra-traditional group”? Without having the courage to name names?
Same old tactic on the part of the Bishop, NT: instead of dealing with the issues, engage in ad hominem attacks against those who criticize you. But at least you are conflicted about all this: perhaps that is a good start.
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Sorry Petrus,
posting ‘extracts’ from your correspondence does nothing to paint the Bishop as a ‘liar’. In fact, to any rational person, those extracts show the Bishop to be trusting and honest in offering you advice. Personal advice that only a devious person could twist and use against him. Shameful. You have proven yourself worthy of a job with any of the gutter news agencies that blight the landscape. Reading you calling your Bishop a liar disgusts me and many others. How dare you do that and call yourself a Catholic. “You can’t print fabrications and get away with it” I think that you are the master of just that Petrus. You clearly have personal issues with Bishop Tartaglia. It is evident on this and other blogs. Perhaps he has stopped answering your correspondence? For his sake. I sure hope so. Someone who keeps letters for nearly a year and quotes from them to try to discredit another is very sad – and dangerous – indeed. And despite the sensationalism, the editor has given no evidence to support her ridiculous claim. In fact I know (and you know) that the Bishop has been in discussion with a group regarding the TLM. And finally, congrats on your simply wondrous humour…Annie get your gun…the sun will come out tomorrow…Gosh, struggling to recover…so in the spirit of your ‘humour’…Petrus, a well chosen name, as he denied Catholic Truth at least 3 times on the DT blog!Rebel
At no time did I suggest that the Bishop was referring to Catholic Truth, interesting that you thought that though.
Nolite Timere
Couldn’t agree more. There are some wonderful Masses celebrated in the ordinary form. I am from Glasgow diocese and while there are certainly areas for improvement, there are many wonderful, hard working priests there who offer Mass in the most spiritual way to packed congregations.
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Annie2
I didn’t “deny Catholic Truth”. I stated that I had nothing to do with the Catholic Truth management team. Fact, my girl. I’m so flattered that you take such an interestin me. Then again, I am very handsome. I know this will disappoint you, Annie2, but I’m happily married.
Anyway, I’m sure even the editor would prefer I deny Catholic Truth the publication, rather than do what Bishop Tartaglia does and deny Catholic Truth – the teaching of the Church.
The Bishop was referring to Catholic Truth, he just didn’t have the guts to say so. Coward.
“In fact I know (and you know) that the Bishop has been in discussion with a group regarding the TLM.”
I keep asking this question, if the bishop was in talks then why didn’t he tell me that when I enquired? Why didn’t he tell the lady, as reported in Catholic Truth, that he has “in discussion”? Is the bishop losing the place slightly?
“There are some wonderful Masses celebrated in the ordinary form. I am from Glasgow diocese and while there are certainly areas for improvement, there are many wonderful, hard working priests there who offer Mass in the most spiritual way to packed congregations.”
Packed congregations? Names of parishes and times of Masses please? By the way, the Novus Ordo (I don’t accept “Ordinary Form”) is a bastard rite. It’s a “banal, on the spot, fabrication” according to Pope Benedict XVI.
Annie2, Bishop Tartaglia is not all he seems. Remember he told the lady asking for the TLM to continue being an Extraordinary Monster? Well, before he received his mitre he wrote a letter to the SCO asking what a priest should do when his bishop tells him to do something that contradicts the teaching of the Pope. Now, all of a sudden, the Bishop is quite happy to encourage others in their disobedience. That, Annie2, is outrageous. That, Annie2, is not Catholic. That, Annie2, is shameful.
Bishop Tartaglia has lost the Catholic Faith.
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Annie & Nolite Timere
I used to blog regularly on thsi site, but after attending their conference in September I saw what kind of people I was dealing with. Frightening. They are the antithesis of everything Jesus taught.
There would be more TLM massess in Scotland if it were not for the Catholic Truth. Many more priests would be willing to celebrate the TLM if it were not for the fact that they would be associated with this kind of rabid fanaticism. CT are not interested in furthering the TLM or even the truth. They are only interested in destroying the reputation and the lives of good people, such as Bishop Tartaglia, Fr McDonald and Cardinal O’Brien. Petrus et al could not lace these guys’ boots.
Petrus betrays a confidence in disclosing what Bp Tartaglia hd written in what the Bishop would have presumed was a private letter to him. Disgraceful. This is the stock in trade of the major bloggers on this site. They analyse what every priest and bishop does to the nth degree looking for faults. It is thoroughly disgusting. I am glad I didn’t look at their vile pronouncements for 4 months.
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Annie:
You are accurate in your assessment that a few of us do not reside in Scotland. Yet, the nightmare of the crisis in the Church is inclusive of both Scotland and the United States, in actuality, it is worldwide. That gives me the grounds to comment on heresy and dissent, in any part of the globe.
Friends at Catholic Truth:
We must really be hitting a nerve. In the last two days, we have been called insular, incestuous, dangerous, frightening, and the antithesis of everything Jesus taught. In fact, we have even compelled Cathedralman to post again. Keep us the good work my friends.
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It’s always the mention of Bishop Tartaglia that brings out all fiercest critics. We’ve had Nolite Timere and Cathedralman today. Wow! I’m now waiting on McEwan and Pasletanus. It’s a cue for an Andy Cameron song:
“We’re on the march with Tartaglia’s army”.
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Thank you Cathedralman, for your interesting post. I have enjoyed reading much of what has been written in this blog since its inception, however over the past few months – as the number of intelligent bloggers has diminished, – the rantings of the few who remain have become more and more distasteful in their desperate mission to promote their own importance.
MCS, please stop deluding yourself, what has been written here by many, is simply not Catholic, and I hope in your heart that you know that already. -
Hi Annie
In all honesty, do you think the words below are Catholic?
insular, incestuous, dangerous, frightening, the antithesis of everything Jesus taught, rabid fanaticism, vile, disgraceful, and disgusting.
Annie
The key is, expressing anger without being nasty about it.
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Petrus
On another thread, you asked me to be specific. Could you be, too, please, and not start on your usual capers.
In your post of 2:41 you slate Bishop Tartaglia for his use of words, and in the previous paragraph you say of Nolite Timere:
“You seem to know an awful lot about the goings on in the diocese. Interesting.”
A snide comment if ever there was one. Do you not see the plank in your own eye, Petrus?
Sorry, stupid question.
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annie2
What matters is loyalty to the teaching of the Church. You must realise that there is a great crisis, a confusion, in the Church today. You might find it interesting to know what St. Vincent of Lerins said about confusion in the Church.
“Moreover, in the Catholic Church itself, all possible care must be taken, that we hold that faith which has been believed everywhere, always, by all. For that is truly and in the strictest sense Catholic, which, as the name itself and the reason of the thing declare, comprehends all universally. This rule we shall observe if we follow universality, antiquity, consent. We shall follow universality if we confess that one faith to be true, which the whole Church throughout the world confesses; antiquity, if we in no wise depart from those interpretations which it is manifest were notoriously held by our holy ancestors and fathers; consent, in like manner, if in antiquity itself we adhere to the consentient definitions and determinations of all, or at the least of almost all priests and doctors.
What then will a Catholic Christian do, if a small portion of the Church have cut itself off from the communion of the universal faith? What, surely, but prefer the soundness of the whole body to the unsoundness of a pestilent and corrupt member? What, if some novel contagion seek to infect not merely an insignificant portion of the Church, but the whole? Then it will be his care to cleave to antiquity, which at this day cannot possibly be seduced by any fraud of novelty.[8.] But what, if in antiquity itself there be found error on the part of two or three men, or at any rate of a city or even of a province? Then it will be his care by all means, to prefer the decrees, if such there be, of an ancient General Council to the rashness and ignorance of a few. But what, if some error should spring up on which no such decree is found to bear? Then he must collate and consult and interrogate the opinions of the ancients, of those, namely, who, though living in various times and places, yet continuing in the communion and faith of the one Catholic Church, stand forth acknowledged and approved authorities: and whatsoever he shall ascertain to have been held, written, taught, not by one or two of these only, but by all, equally, with one consent, openly, frequently, persistently, that he must understand that he himself also is to believe without any doubt or hesitation.”
Stick to this, Annie2. It doesn’t matter if I am a SOB. Forget about trading insults, forget about who you think is intelligent and who is not. What matters is the Truth, Catholic Truth. In a crisis, cling to antiquity.
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MCS
I have said on numerous occasions, it is the major bloggers on this site who are the most abusive, editor, Athanasius, Petrus, etc, when destroying the characters of priests, bishops and those with whome they disagree. And please quote words in the context in which they were written. Do not adopt the ruse of twisting words to mean what they were not intended. That is disgraceful.
Annie
As you say, intelligent debate is scarce on this blog. That is one of the reasons I disappeared. I didn’t like being misrepresented and harried by the fanatics on this blog. Keep blogging, Annie, until you are moderated and censored.
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Not really sure what you are asking, Cathedralman. I’ll be specific about anything you like.
Why don’t you tell us what you thought of the Conference. Not, “I didn’t like it, the people were mad”. What was the most interesting thing Fr Gruner said?
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Cathedralman
We have the faith. That’s what matters. It is of secondary importance if we are intelligent or untelligent, charming or swines, handsome or ugly. These things are of secondary importance. What matters is the Catholic Faith.
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I think you will find that the words I used in my posts were not as dramatic as many in your list, but I understand that focussing on language, examining it, using it against the writer etc has become commonplace on this blog. But as I have already stated, I’m sure you know that.
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Cathedralman
We have the faith. That’s what matters. It is of secondary importance if we are intelligent or untelligent, charming or scoundrels, handsome or ugly. These things are of secondary importance. What matters is the Catholic Faith.
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We have the faith. That’s what matters. It is of secondary importance if we are intelligent or untelligent, charming or scoundrels, handsome or ugly. These things are of secondary importance. What matters is the Catholic Faith.
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“We have the faith” Petrus. Is that the royal we? Catholic Truth we? Or is it you and I?
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I’ve not had time to read this thread properly but note that with the return of Cathedralman, there is a great deal of nastiness. That’s not allowed.
As for Cathedralman’s claim to have attended our conference – I simply do not believe him. The entire atmosphere of the day was beautiful, we had a number of excellent priests, I met everyone at the lunch and tea breaks and nobody expressed any criticism whatsoever.
So, Cathedralman, I don’t believe you were there. I didn’t believe it when you said you’d attended at the time but chose to spare your blushes.
Now that you are back looking for a fight, consider yourself obliged.If you were at our conference, I want the name under which you bought your ticket or whoever bought it for you. I just do not believe you were there.
Not least because nobody in a state of grace could fail to have been touched by Father Gruner’s and Father Kramer’s talks.
annie2 has also turned nasty and we don’t allow that. You speak about diminishing numbers of intelligent bloggers without (as usual) being specific. It is also highly insulting to imply that the bloggers who are good enough to respond calmly to your insults, lack intelligence. Far from it.
Now, there are plenty of blogs that I don’t like for various reasons. I never go near them so I’m puzzled as to why you keep returning here.
Everyone is welcome here, but they must observe the blog rules as set out in our side panel. If you don’t want to do that, then please find another blog.
Please note: (1) both cathedralman and annie2 are now in moderation so avoid using their names if you wish to respond to their posts from now on or your posts will also go into moderation.
(2) Cathedralman, I’ve just deleted your last post, making personal criticism of Petrus. All posts with personal nasty remarks will be deleted. Don’t waste your time writing them. -
Petrus,
You are not qualified to sat that “Bishop Tartaglia has lost the Catholic Faith.”
Although I enjoy some of the debate on this blog, agreeing with some and disagreeing with others, it is this kind of statement, leaping from the particular to the general, that too often spoils it.Eileenanne
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James, you are totally spot on in your observation that the bishops are clearly now really fearful of the impact of Catholic Truth. This week’s observer alone is testament to their awareness that the Faithful are becoming more savvy and they know that we are widely read, so – thanks to the grace of God – helping to educate people about the effects of this crisis.
Well said. I couldn’t help noticing how your comment was quickly followed by heavy criticism of Catholic Truth and our bloggers. YOU, too, have hit a raw nerve, James – thank you!
Miles Christi Sum – you say the same thing about our returned bloggers: they just can’t stay away, despite the fact that they truly hate Catholic Truth (and not just the publication).
Eileenanne,
I know Petrus well enough to know that he types fast and he would no doubt mean to say that the Bishop has “apparently lost the Faith” – all the signs are there, Eileenanne, all the signs are there and if we can say that a doctor like Dr Shipman has apparently (to all appearances) lost his desire, if ever he had it, to save lives and heal people (given that he was uncovered as a mass murderer) then we can equally say that a Bishop who favours a protestantised Mass and not only that, manifestly hates the Mass that the martyrs shed their life’s blood for, has apparently lost his Catholic Faith. That’s fair enough.
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Editor
All this talk has brought back memories of that wonderful day in September. It truly was grace-filled.
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Editor, there are no personal insults contained in any of my posts. To bloggers or clergymen. I may have criticised behaviour and comments and I stand by that 100%. This follows the ‘blog rules as set out’. This cannot be said for all of the bloggers who have posted on this thread, not currently in ‘moderation’. It is unfortunate that you have demonstrated such a measure as it certainly does nothing to enhance your discussion. I hope that you find some kind of peace in your life.
Editor: implying that bloggers are unintelligent is about as personal as it gets. Don’t do it. Our discussions are robust and we are perfectly entitled to comment on people like priests and bishops in public life. Catholics with very poor formation tend to fall into the “Father knows best” category so, for your own peace of mind, why not find a less militant blog? We’re militant. We’re fighting the crisis in the Church. It’s clearly not your cup of tea so why not find somewhere more conducive to your own nature – a blog where everyone is gentle and kind… As for your criticisms of Catholic Truth – frankly, I don’t give a TOSS about your opinion of our newsletter and blog. Save your breath. Peacefully yours…
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Eileenanne
You are quite right. I don’t have any authority to say that. I don’t know for certain what is going on in the heart of another person. Thanks for pointing that out.
So let me re-phrase what I said. In my opinion, all the signs show that Bishop Tartaglia has apparently lost the Catholic Faith.
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Agreed, Petrus. The Fatima Conference in September was truly wonderful. Nobody could possibly think otherwise, in good faith. And I made a point of asking everyone – and I just kept hearing that it was a most wonderful, grace-filled experience.
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“despite the fact that they truly hate Catholic Truth (and not just the publication).”
Editor — So true! I love your clever play on words.
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Thanks Miles Christi Sum,
So you don’t agree with annie2 who thinks I’m unintelligent? Sob, sob…
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“implying that bloggers are unintelligent is about as personal as it gets. Don’t do it. Our discussions are robust and we are perfectly entitled to comment on people like priests and bishops in public life. Catholics with very poor formation tend to fall into the “Father knows best” category so, for your own peace of mind, why not find a less militant blog? We’re militant. We’re fighting the crisis in the Church. It’s clearly not your cup of tea so why not find somewhere more conducive to your own nature – a blog where everyone is gentle and kind… As for your criticisms of Catholic Truth – frankly, I don’t give a TOSS about your opinion of our newsletter and blog. Save your breath. Peacefully yours… ”
Editor- Standing ovation!!!!!! Very well said!!!!
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Editor – A-2 thinks we’re all unintelligent. She has not learned how to express anger without being nasty and resorts to name calling.
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Miles Christi Sum,
Thank you very much indeed… (bow to the gallery in gratitude for the standing ovation…)
As you would say over there in the States: WOW!
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I had decided it would be a good idea for me to give up this website for Lent, but I think I’ll depart now.
Happy fasting when it comes everyone.
Eileenanne
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Surprise surprise, anyone who dares criticise the most exalted CT brigade is put into moderation. (Ed: well don’t do it, silly)
Petrus, I love your ability to find an obscure quotation from saints or Popes (or both) and how you manage to always twist it to fit your arguments, anyway surely it’s about time for you to jump ship…perhaps Eastern Orthodox.. have you been one of them yet ?
Editor: that’s nasty, Nolite Timere. Stop it.
However my dear Peter, you show your true self where on one hand you bleat and bleat about what Pope Benedict said in SP about your entitlement.. Obviously that section of SP suits you, however you later refuse to use the term OF as you disagree with that, even though it is Pope Benedict himself who uses this phrase? I didnt realise that Traditional Catholicsm was about picking and choosing which bits to follow… is that not similar to the misguided souls since V2, picking which bits to do or not?
Editor: well, that just shows your ignorance (with respect) NT because being a faithful Catholic today is ALL about “picking and choosing” – picking (or rather sticking with) Tradition and supporting the Pope when he does too, and rejecting novelties (such as ecumenism). It’s the Pope remember, not the Dalai Lama. No pope is above criticism. Read up on St Cardinal Robert Bellarmine to educate yourself on this – I suggest before you participate further in this blog.Again lets look at facts, its always amazing how you gloss them over so not to get in the way of your constant diatribes at Prelates, Priests, Congregrations, Schools, Fellow Catholics or whoever you feel like complaining about:
Fact 1 – Bishop Philip has asked Priests to celebrate in the EF (Ed: who? which parish? when?)
Fact 2 – Many Priests have been scared off due to groups like you (Ed: baloney. Which groups are like Catholic Truth? Name even one.)
Fact 3 – There have been little requests made for the EF except from this insular brigade (Ed: that’s because the people do not know about Summorum Pontificum etc. Think)
Fact 4 – Too many regular posters on here actually believe that they have superior knolwedge to those ordained after many years formation.(Ed: how do you know that? Can you read minds? A tad judgmental don’t you think?)
Fact 5 – You have the SSPX most of you have stated that even if EF was available in your own Parish you would still rather go there. (Ed: that’s just in Phase One until the diocesan clergy are re-formed to preach the undiluted Catholic Faith, provide devotions etc.)Oh and by the way, I notice your other thread about the abhorrent conference with Thomas Groome that horrible bad man (no doubt diabolical or masonic or both), at the same time I also note the two comments above from Ed and Petrus re your own “grace filled” conference from last September… key speaker… Fr Gruner… who according to other sources is “not a priest in good standing with the Roman Catholic Church” and also someone who has had his appeal against his suspension rejected by the Signatura. Suppose the Church is mistaken, the tribunals are mistaken but good old CT are correct. (Ed: ask Cathedralman to tell you all about that. It was all explained at the Conference. All lies, Sugar Plum. Take it you have no objections to Prof Tom Groome then?)
“Were on the march with Tartaglia’s army” Well would prefer to be on that march than on the CT Crusade! (Ed: that’s clear enough for me. Bye!)
In case your wondering -we all came out the woodwork following our local lodge meeting, where the worshipful master told us to get to CT blog and defend our brother Philip who was under attack… again!
Yes there is a Masonic conspiracy and we wrote the OF, but shhh don’t tell anyone… they will never believe you! (Ed: unfortunately for you guys, it’s not a matter of “belief”. The facts speak for themselves – you’re just going to LOVE our next thread…)
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Nolite Timere,
What was Fr Gruner suspended for? And by whom?
Petrus,
You’re getting a lot of flak over revealing Bp Tartaglia’s email to you. Was it marked “confidential.” Even if it were, does Bp Tartaglia not think he is accountable for what he writes. Did you break some seal such as that of the confessional?
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Torkay, can I ask – what exactly is your interest in Scotland?
Ed: Torkay has shown much more interest in the Church in Scotland than you have, Guardian Angel. He blogs regularly unlike you. You tend to appear when it suits you and it usually suits you, it seems, when things are being stirred.
Am I right is saying that you live is the US? I just don’t get what your interest is. Can you enlighten us? What is special about church affairs here??
Ed: if you were properly formed in the Faith you would know that the Church is universal and nobody is restricted to fighting to defend the faith in their own parish, diocese or country. Quite the reverse. You modernists should get down on your knees and thank God for Catholic Truth because you seem to know sweet nothing about the Faith. Keep reading here and that will soon change.
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Good evening all,
Late to the post but hopefully not too late.
This is a sorry impasse and no question. For a prelate of the Church to openly invite dissent through public expression in such a tone and manner is rather unfortunate to say the least. Previous posters have had quite a bit to say and, regrettably, too much to say to/about each other rather than the subject in hand.
That the Bishop has a right to express his views must not questioned; however the manner of the delivery in this instance, which on occasion I found unnecessarily divisive rather than that of a pastoral shepherd, may be found later to be viewed by laity and religious alike as an error of judgement. On balance I would say he does paint a fairly accurate picture of the Church in Scotland today and couches his language rather cleverly at times.
What I find interesting is the timing of this article. It follows quickly after Msgr. Smith’s article stating there is little call for the EF (in Glasgow). That two interrelated articles are published within such a short timescale cannot be construed as coincidental. That both articles are published immediately prior to and during the Ad Limina visit is again interesting.
That there are extremists within the Church may well be true BUT if there are then I think it fair to say they belong to both extremes – liberal and conservative. In the interests of fairness I do hope His Excellency will publish another article. Now yes I can already here posters shouting at their keyboards and saying Benedict you cannot hold your breath that long, well, by their fruits shall they be known.
This is the first time I have read anything of note from Bishop Tartaglia but hopefully not the last; he is most assuredly a man to watch.
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Grignion
I’ve never received any correspondance from the bishop marked “confidential” or “private”.
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The comment from eileenanne has got me thinking. The use of the word “liar” is a bit strong. I have my suspicions, but I can’t say for certain that Bishop Tartaglia DELIBERATELY intended to publish falsehoods. What I can say is that he published falsehoods. So I retract the accusation that Bishop Tartaglia is a liar.
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Petrus, thank you for that humble clarification.
Nolite Timere,
I’ve intervened to comment on your latest post in the text – you’re really getting close to being downright rude Sir (or is that ‘Father’?)
Whatever, please beware of posting any more nasty-ish comments or you’ll join the other nuisances in the moderation box.
Benedict,
Bishop Tartaglia is, as you say, most assuredly “a man to watch” and, believe me, we’re watching!
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Didn’t think so. In my job, I am accountable for everything I say and write down. Even if it were marked “confidential” it doesn’t make a difference. It just means no-one else should open it. I would have thought, being a bishop, His Lordship would have known this. Perhaps his adoring fans should bear this in mind.
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I occasionally blog on American sites- even though I live in Scotland!
A big welcome to bloggers from America!
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You know what the real problem is with us nasty militant neo-fascist traditionalists, Editor? The problem is we just won’t accept the norm:
-a desacralized Protestantized mass,
-dissent and “dialogue,” even from the pulpit,
-altar girls,
-crappy music,
-made-up liturgies,
-propitiatory sacrifice replaced by a memorial meal,
-”extraordinary ministers” handling the Blessed Sacrament,
-no altar rails,
-Tabernacles off to the side, or nowhere to be found,
-receiving standing and in the hand,
-picking and choosing which doctrines to believe,
-general absolution,
-the disappearance of sin,
-”gay” masses….I’m sure this list could be much longer, but my point is, people no longer find anything wrong with any of this because they have been taught falsely, or not at all. So, anyone who objects to it is automatically a troublemaker.
Reminds me of that famous quote of Joseph Goebbels:
“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”
Apparently, Catholic Truth is making it rather difficult for the corrupt clergy to continue to shield the sheep from the fact that all this “norm” is not in the least bit Catholic. Therefore, WE have become the dissenters, We are the enemy, and WE must be marginalized.
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It’s intellectually dishonest of the bishop to say that there is no demand for the Extraordinary Form. Most common or garden Catholics have no idea about liturgical orthodoxy. I have to tread carefully, lest I drop an undeserving friend right in it, but recent events have shown me that the lack of knowledge about the liturgy amongst otherwise well-educated people is staggering. If people don’t have the liturgical knowledge to know what parts of the Mass are essential and don’t understand (or in some cases actively support) some of the abuses they see, let alone know any liturgical history, they can’t be expected to clamour for a return to the older rite. Most don’t even know that the Novus Ordo is being twisted and dismembered before their very eyes. They see “creative” approaches to liturgy as a positive thing.
I don’t know for sure that the EF is essential. I believe that a properly celebrated Novus Ordo is a valid and licit Mass and I’m happy enough with it if it’s done right. I believe there is a perfectly reasonable discussion to be had about which rite is most appropriate to which circumstance. After all, no-one ever forced the Tridentine Mass on the Eastern Churches. But Bishop Tartaglia is just plain wrong if he believes that the majority of priests celebrate the Mass in accordance with the rubrics (which I assume is what he means by “Church directions.”) In almost every Church I’ve been in around Glasgow, I’ve seen something done wrongly, and in a few cases, seen almost everything done wrongly. Until the bishops are at least prepared to demand orthodoxy to the Novus Ordo, they have no right to claim any moral high ground in a debate about liturgical correctness.
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To clarify my first point with a metaphor that just came to me, imagine McDonald’s introduce a new burger. Let’s call it the McAwesome. However, they don’t advertise it. Not every store manager bothers to even stock it. Despite being a great burger that might be more to the taste of many customers than the Big Mac, no-one in the company seems keen to let people know about it. There’s no point of sale advertising, nothing on TV, nothing on billboards. Staff are not encouraged to talk about it or offer it to their customers. Eventually, it’s withdrawn because, say the marketing guys, “there’s no demand for the McAwesome.” Don’t those same marketing guys have a bit of a cheek, since it was their job to get the product out there in the first place?
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Guardian Angel
Sorry, just noticed your question. Yes, I do live in the US, but that hasn’t extinguished my desire to defend the faith wherever I can. My connection with Scotland is due to Editor’s invitation to speak at the CT Conference in May 2008. She wanted an American speaker, so she invited an Italian. Go figure.
In fact, even though you live across the pond, I invite you to defend the faith in the US. You may have heard about the US Bishop’s Conference recently getting caught in a long-term funding relationship with numerous pro-abortion, pro-homosexual groups….if not, would be happy to send you a link to a video about it.
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Legion
Well said!
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“A big welcome to bloggers from America”
THANK YOU GRIGNION!
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I repost my questions:
His Grace writes:
“Such provision as there is, some of it long-standing, centrally located and prime-timed on a Sunday morning, is vastly under-used.”
Sounds like a Council Leader justifying the proposed closure of Swimming pools or art classes for children. I can hear him saying “We do all we can to provide this service to the public despite all the calls on our resources but sadly we have no choice but to …”
But is any of this statement accurate?
Are there long-standing (what ever that means) TLMs in his Diocese?
Are they “prime-timed”? I assume that means they are at 9.00am
Are these TLM’s “under-used”?Thanks from a Londoner.
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Under-used?
Let’s say that back in the mid-60’s Catholic teachers decided that Latin and Greek were out-of-date languages to teach, a bit difficult with too many grammatical points to learn and stopped teaching Latin. Instead they taught useful Modern Languages like French and Spanish using modern techniques conversation.
A few teachers kept on teaching Latin and Greek in a few Catholic schools but they were distrusted by those who had abolished teaching Latin and Greek.
Then some 50 years later some more Catholic schools decided to start teaching Latin and Greek again but very few pupils were interested as they knew nothing about Latin or Greek.
Would the Catholic Headmasters’ Conference be right to conclude that they should stop teaching Latin and Greek due to low demand or should they encourage pupils to participate in the revival of these languages?
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Benet,
Thanks for reposting your questions. I had noted them at the time and now am noting that none of Bishop Tartaglia’s Merry Men (and Women) has answered, so allow me to enlighten you.
When a lady in the Diocese of Paisley wrote to ask for the TLM, the Bishop told her that if she wanted to attend one, she would have to go elsewhere. Glasgow is the nearest TLM but not centrally located. As always, the TLM is relegated to those areas of Glasgow which are euphemistically described as “socially deprived”. That is, the Alsatians go around in pairs, wearing tin helmets. It used to be Shettleston, now it’s Bridgeton. When the current parish priest first moved into the presbytery in Bridgeton, he was attacked by a yob. It’s a notoriously “Orange” – i.e. extremist Protestant – area.
There are NO TLM’s in Paisley. So the Bishop’s statement is entirely false. Check out the Masses page on the Una Voce Scotland website
http://www.unavocescotland.org.uk/uvsmassesevents.htm Nothing listed for Paisley.As for “under-used” – same response as the “nobody is asking for the TLM”. That’s because they don’t know it’s an option. Summorum Pontificum has been kept from the people (as I said in my ad limina letter to Rome recently, ahead of the bishops’ trip…)
The people will follow the lead of the bishop and priests. They need to provide and PROMOTE it. Yes, Bishop Tartaglia – promote it among the people. Then they WILL attend and it WON’T be under-used…
For, contrary to what the Bishop said and umpteen folk on here defending the NO (despite admitting it’s shortcomings – think about that: happy enough to offer shabby “worship” to God: and they wonder why the weather is all over the place…) contrary to what the Bishop et al say, the Mass is not about nourishment for us. Yes, we obtain our spiritual nourishment from the Eucharist, of course, but the first purpose of the Mass is to worship God in the way He wants us to worship.
Thus the rather silly talk about not understanding Latin reveals a total ignorance of the fact that we don’t NEED to understand it (although there’s something wrong with somebody who cannot follow the English translation in the missal) because the only thing that really matters is that GOD understands it and it pleases Him – or so the countless martyrs who died to protect and preserve it, thought.
Hope this answers your questions, Benet. Sorry not to have responded sooner.
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Benet,
I think Legion hit the nail on the head when he spoke about how the Faithful are so poorly educated on matters to do with the liturgy. That is the reason why it hasn’t been asked for much. If people understood what the Mass was about a bit more, and believed what the Church actually teaches about the Mass, I don’t think there would be much demand for the Novus Ordo.
On the subject of the provision that there is, I think His Lordship is exaggerating at best. The only diocesan TLM on a Sunday in the West of Scotland is in an area of Glasgow called Bridgeton. It is reasonably central and has good public transprt links, and the Mass is at 10:15am on a Sunday morning. I’ll give His Lordship that, and it is better than how it used to be- they had an unfortunate habit of changing around the time and venue without notice for a few years. In addition, until recently whenever the priest who says the Mass was off, the Mass was off. About two years ago, I remember it being announced that there would be no TLM over the Summer, but there would be a Novus Ordo Mass in Latin in a church in different part of the city. I went, only to discover that it was off for the Summer too! It was a windup, and sadly, it really only confirmed what I already believed about the Archdiocese of Glasgow. I remember phoning the prebytery to ask if the TLM was deifinitely on, and the priest would tell me the times of the English Masses. I don’t have to travel half way across the city to hear Mass in English, thank you.
He is also right about the congregation being small. However, it’s not the numbers that matters exactly, and he wasn’t including the hundred or so people who regularly attend the SSPX Mass that happens to be on at around the same time and doesn’t get cancelled when the priest is on holiday. Mass attendance has gone into freefall since the New Mass was imposed on the Faithful. There are now fewer seminaries in Scotland today than when Catholicism was a capital offence. Surely they are not going to try to convince me that there was a demand for the New Mass. I remember hearing about the time when Communion in the hand was introduced. Our curit at the time (remember when we had them?) got up and said, “Apparently there is a high demand for Communion on the hand. I was unaware of such a demand.”
Incidently, the Novus Ordo Mass in Latin is in a church where there was a brutal murder of a young Polish student a few years ago. Her murderer, Peter Tobin buried her under the floor inside the chapel.
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Also, Bridgeton is quite a rough area, and at certain times of the year, you can’t move in it for Orangemen!
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Thank you for clarifying the situation in the Bishop’s Diocese…….
Even Pope Paul VI on the eve of the introduction of the Novus Ordo in 1969 acknowledged the greatness of the TLM and suggest that he regretted the changes —-
Pope Paul VI
Address to a General Audience, November 26, 1969Our Dear Sons and Daughters:
1. We ask you to turn your minds once more to the liturgical innovation of the new rite of the Mass. This new rite will be introduced into our celebration of the holy Sacrifice starting from Sunday next which is the first of Advent, November 30 [in Italy].
2. A new rite of the Mass: a change in a venerable tradition that has gone on for centuries. This is something that affects our hereditary religious patrimony, which seemed to enjoy the privilege of being untouchable and settled. It seemed to bring the prayer of our forefathers and our saints to our lips and to give us the comfort of feeling faithful to our spiritual past, which we kept alive to pass it on to the generations ahead.
snip
8. It is here that the greatest newness is going to be noticed, the newness of language. No longer Latin, but the spoken language will be the principal language of the Mass. The introduction of the vernacular will certainly be a great sacrifice for those who know the beauty, the power and the expressive sacrality of Latin.
We are parting with the speech of the Christian centuries; we are becoming like profane intruders in the literary preserve of sacred utterance. We will lose a great part of that stupendous and incomparable artistic and spiritual thing, the Gregorian chant.
9. We have reason indeed for regret, reason almost for bewilderment. What can we put in the place of that language of the angels? We are giving up something of priceless worth. But why? What is more precious than these loftiest of our Church’s values?
10. The answer will seem banal, prosaic. Yet it is a good answer, because it is human, because it is apostolic.
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Grignion,
sorry but I don’t think Bridgeton is central at all. St Aloysius (with altar rails, incidentally) is central and the cathedral is central but not Bridgeton.
Why should anyone have to travel out of the city centre to get to a traditional Mass?The point is, anyway, that Glasgow is a different town. There are no Masses in Paisley at all, so the bishop is being misleading.
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Rebel,
Yes, you’re right. Bishop Tartaglia is not archbishop of Glasgow- yet!
I meant that it’s within the city, so to me it’s central! I frequently drive past it on Sundays on my way to St Andrew’s in Garnethill!
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Benet
Thanks for that post from Paul VI. What a horribly deluded man.
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“who propagate the false doctrine that the Mass in the ordinary form and Mass in the extraordinary form are not one and the same Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and that Mass in the extraordinary form is superior to the ordinary form, which should be suppressed. ”
The crucial point is this, Bishop Tartaglia seems to be the opposite of the groups he describes above. HE doesn’t believe the Novus Ordo Mass and the TLM are one and the same Holy Sacrifice of the Mass – that’s one thing he has got right! Bishop Tartaglia seems to think that the Novus Ordo is superior to the TLM. Therefore, he is exactly the same as the group(s) he vilifies above, albeit he comes from the opposite angle.
Here’s a challenge for the bishop. If he really believes that the Novus Ordo and the TLM are one and the same Rite of Mass then why doesn’t he provide both in his Cathedral Church?
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Petrus,
Now that’s what I call clear thinking! Totally spot on. Got it in one.
There’s something else that needs to be pointed out before I disappear into thin air (say nothing, Cathedralman, annie2 – say nothing)
Bishop Tartaglia speaks about these “militant ultra-traditional groupings” disrespecting the modern Popes including the person of the present Pope.
He clearly has never read either St Robert Bellarmine (Cardinal Bellarmine) or any of the letters of St Catherine of Siena and various other saints who took bishops and popes to task.
It is not to “disrespect” a pope to point out his errors. For his criticism to stand up, Bishop Tartaglia would need to quote, chapter and verse, any occasion when Catholic Truth has made nasty personal remarks about any Pope. That, we have never done – and never will.
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I have read the posts above and I believe that Bishop Tartaglia is deliberately misleading the Faithful. I have been attending the LTM now for just over 4 years with my three young children with no prior knowledge of Latin and poor knowledge of my Catholic Faith and now after such a short time my children and I, are understanding the mass properly for the first time in my whole life and gradually getting to know how to read and understand the Latin language. My 13 year-old daughter is now very familiar with the Latin lanugage and can now read and understand the Gloria and the different parts of the Mass in Latin. My 4 year-old and 7 year-old understands the sign of the cross in Latin, and recognises the word and meaning of Sanctus as well as many more words and parts of the Latin Mass.
My children and I have been denied the Latin Mass and its beauty until now, and our Catholic education – there has NOT been one! So, If the LTM was to return fully and schools taught the Faith properly using Traditional Catholic textbooks and taught languages such as Greek and Latin – generations of children could enjoy the riches of the Catholic Faith and save their souls from Hell fire.
I have chosen to Home Educate my children so that they won’t be denied their Faith. I am so thankful that my children will be privilaged to learn the LTM and their Traditional Catholic Faith and not the vacuous nonesense forced upon them in the local state schools.
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Superb post, Bernadette. You are right in saying that we have been robbed. We are roughly of the same age and our generation were denied the fullness of the Catholic Faith. Banal liturgies and modernist Relgious Education almost destroyed my faith completely. It is only because of my devotion to Our Lady that I was rescued from Modernism, Protestantism and, inevitably, the fire of Hell.
God has chosen us to be brought up in this crisis. He has chosen us to raise children in these terrible times. Thankfully, He has not left us as orphans. We have been like sheep without shepherds for so long, but not anymore. Through Archbishop Lefebvre, God has given us Bishop Fellay and the other bishops, along with the priests of the Society of Saint Pius X to see us through this terrible crisis. Thanks be to God and His Blessed Mother!
My wife and I, like Bernadette and her family, have benefited so much from attending the TLM. Not only have we been able to offer God true worship, rather than the shabby “let’s feel good and create community” Novus Ordo, but we have made friends with like-minded, married couples of our own age. This has been a great support for us and hopefully this will continue in the future.
I agree, Bernadette, it is very easy to pick up Latin when you are attending the TLM. It’s also great for children to be brought up with Latin. We also intend to home school and I’d really like my children to learn Latin. I’ve noticed that the Seton Home Schooling website sells materials for primary schooll level. I’m a primary school teacher and I think the Seton material looks great, so we’ll definitely be ordering some of the books.
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Bernadette, Petrus, et al
Here is a link to a video by RealCatholicTV.com, which is currently exposing the latest crisis at the US Conference of Catholic Bishops:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JO93-fFdyM0&feature=PlayList&p=46C0229EA8FEA3E0&index=0
I especially commend the second half of the video to your attention, wherein the host reads a letter from an angry layman to the Conference regarding this scandal.
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Can anyone tell me why Athanasius doesn’t blog here now? He was on almost every day and now – nothing! Is he ok?
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Guardian Angel
I can sure you Athanasius is fine. I saw and spoke to him on Sunday.
I think the editor has already covered this issue of asking where bloggers are. She forces no one to blog. People blog when they can. or want to. I know Athanasius travels all over the country, sometimes at the last minute.
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Me, too, Petrus, I saw Athanasius on Sunday as well, albeit racing in almost late, as I was, for Mass.
But I’m curious, Guardian Angel. You are the third person to ask about Athanasius’s absence in a short while. Must be a true saying, that “absence makes the heart grow fonder” because there was no love lost between any of the enquirers and Athanasius when he did blog regularly. Indeed, he had to field an awful lot of verbal abuse, all round, did poor Athanasius.
So, my best guess is that you are fishing, presuming there is some scandal afoot.
Don’t be too disappointed…
Torkay,
Thanks for that link to RealCatholicTV.com – unbelievable stuff.
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You know, in all the hoopla over Bishop T’s calling us a “militant, ultra-traditionalist group,” we’ve forgotten to comment on the word MILITANT.
The Church Militant is one of the three states of the Church. It refers not only to soldiery, but to the struggle of life here on earth. Catholics on earth struggle against sin so that they may ultimately attain to the Church Triumphant when they die.
So we should be quite delighted to be labeled as militant, esp. by a member of the Church Mealymouthed. It means we are doing our job.
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Whenever I hear the word “Militant” I think of Militant Tendency and Neil Kinnock.
I wonder was this what the good Bishop had in mind!
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Oh Editor, your ‘best guess’ is way off the mark. I wasn’t fishing, only making an observation….but your ‘guess’ says more about how you operate than me! And believe me – there are easier ways to fish, especially in Bradford!
I am glad he’s well.
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Guardian Angel,
I have been wondering why you and someone else keep asking about Athanasius because he was heaped with criticism for being heavy handed at times and it’s no wonder if he did get fed up and decided to take the easy life. Actually, you don’t always blog on a regular basis either, so I wouldn’t read anything into it.
Benet,
I took a look at that Militant website and if anything would put you off socialism that would!
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Editor
I was certainly at the conference, and saw proceedings – and participants – at first hand. I was rather a frightening experience. Whether you believe me or not is of no concern to me whatsoever. Incidentally, I thought that calling bloggers liars was anathema on this site now, or do the chosen few have a dispensation?
Editor: I did not call you a liar. I said I did not believe you. Quite a different thing. Reflect. But, for the record, the administrator of the blog DOES have a dispensation. I don’t want bloggers insulting each other – that’s my job. Dictatorship, some (unthinking folk) call it. Am I bovvered?
Do not ask me to prove I was there, or ask me to identify myself. (Ed: why not? You are a lay person like the rest of us. What makes YOU so important? You are anti-Catholic Truth so even if you are a priest or a teacher, you are not in any danger of being unemployed, so what’s the big deal? Deep down you know you’re in the wrong, maybe? If you had been there, I believe you would have remarked on any announcements made by me, from front of house.) The very brave priests who were there were not to be identified. What do they fear? As St Paul said, “With God on our side, who can be against us?”
Editor: I don’t recall any announcement about priests not to be identified. There were priests from various parts of Scotland and England there and none asked not to be identified. Listen, there isn’t a bishop in the land would DARE to take any priest to task for attending a Catholic Truth conference when they are sending out invites to their priests, teachers and catechists to spend £75 per head to listen to an outright heretic like Tom Groome, an ex-priest at that, whose books have already been banned by Cardinal Pell. Unless they are totally brainless as well as faithless, they won’t even THINK about persecuting any of the priests who came to hear what Fathers Gruner and Kramer had to say about Fatima.
Now, Cathedalman, you’ve had your fun. I suggest – with respect – that you read this blog (to learn) but don’t upset yourself by contributing to it. We’re too “traditional” for you and too “liberal” for others, so both extremes are better just reading and burying their heads in the sand and let those of us who love the Faith and want to defend and promote it, get on with it.
We really don’t want anyone on here but ordinary Catholics. The extremists we can do without. I’m busy and only re-opened the blog to full time hours at the request of some regulars. I won’t be on every five minutes so if you insist on posting, you’ll have to be patient until I can find time to release your comments. I recommend two blogs where you will feel at home and be welcome: Father Z’s blog and Damien Thompson’s Telegraph blog. -
Editor
“The extremists we can do without.”
Lovely sense of irony!
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Editor
You wrote after the conference:
“Nuala, not a lot of Scots priests attended but I would ask bloggers not to name any of the priests at all who attended to avoid them being persecuted in their dioceses.”
and above:
“Listen, there isn’t a bishop in the land would DARE to take any priest to task for attending a Catholic Truth conference”
What is it to be, the first one or the second one? You can’t have both!
Editor: oh yes, Sugar Plum, we can certainly have both. I didn’t know when I wrote the above caution, that the priests concerned couldn’t give a toss about being named, could I? I didn’t ask them at the time. They did not request anonymity but we tend to take it for granted with priests. So, despite some actually saying that we couldn’t have that many people in a hall and not expect the priests to be named, I thought it better to be cautious and not broadcast the names. If they came out, so be it. Since then, the attitude of the clergy has more or less been – just let my bishop DARE to challenge me for attending a conference on Our Lady. Just DARE. Fighting spirit – if only we had more priests like them.
The second reason why we can have both, Cathedralman, is this: when I wrote that caution, I had no idea that Professor Groome was going to be brought half way across the world to (further) poison the minds of priests, teachers and catechists. Or maybe you think I’m able to foresee the future? A prophet? Me? Shucks, thanks. We already had plenty of ammunition of that kind anyway, given the list of dissenters who regularly preach their heresy from Catholic premises in Scotland, but this one is like, well, straight from Santa’s sack. A Dissenter’s Paradise, courtesy of St Aloysius College and Archbishop Conti. So, wrong again, Cathedralman. Amazing. You should start classes – you could charge a fortune to learn “how to get it wrong all the time” – you’re quite an expert…
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Petrus
You wrote:
“It is only because of my devotion to Our Lady that I was rescued from Modernism, Protestantism and, inevitably, the fire of Hell. ”
Editor: clearly, Cathedralman, Petrus is speaking philosophically. After all, “outside the Church there is no salvation” and wilful Modernists, Protestants et al are risking Hell big-time. Don’t you think? Strike that; I forgot – that’s the problem, you don’t think (with respect, of course)… I happen to know that Petrus pursues as many devotional practices as he can get his hands on, in order to win the grace NOT to end up in Hell. What about you, Cathedralman? Ever made the nine First Fridays, for example? Just curious. But hey, listen, I’m impressed you seem to have heard of Hell. Must be from reading this blog; it certainly WON’T be from your parish priest’s homilies. So, well done YOU (as our English brethren and cistern say….)
Surely presumption such as this is a sin?
Editor – so you’ve heard of “sin” and “presumption” as well – in the same sentence? WOW, as Torkay would say – this blog really is bringing home the bacon. WOW!How can you be sure that you have been saved from the fire of Hell?
Editor: well, if I was a betting gal, my money would be on Petrus being saved from the fires of Hell before a certain A.N. Other on this blog… (nudge, nudge, wink, wink…)
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Benet
Regarding your “militant” link, I have a feeling that is just the kind of association Bishop T wishes his flock to make.
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Editor
What can you say to someone who says the truth is frightening? Good grief, Charlie Brown!
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This is my first time on this site and like Bernadette, our family have greatly benefited from attending the real Mass and our children are also now home schooled in order to properly learn and understand the Faith (having only converted a couple of years back.) As for the “militant ultra-traditional groupings”, I wish the bishop would let me know where these groups are in Scotland and then we wouldn’t have had to go all the way to California to be baptised and received into the Church and then go all the way back in order to attend daily Mass and have our confirmations done! Thankfully, even feeling somewhat alone here with no mass that we feel we can attend here in scotland, we have been well supported by our friends and priest from holy family. Discussions like this can only help, and like someone said earlie, I too am delighted to be labeled as militant.
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Welcome to our blog, warriorpoet and many thanks for your first, very interesting indeed, post.
Please come to our homeschooling meeting on 27th February – you’ll meet other parents who are thinking of home-schooling and a couple who do so already. Bring your children – they’ll have plenty of company. The details are advertised in our current newsletter, so check that out on our website.
It is important for families to have a network of support and although I’ll only be going along to make the tea, I’m looking forward to meeting everyone.
A renewed welcome, warriorpoet – keep blogging with us – we need you!
Torkay,
What you say to someone who says the truth is frightening is…. BOOOOOOOOO!
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Rebel
You said ‘I have been wondering why you and someone else keep asking about Athanasius….’
I asked ONCE. That hardly constitutes ‘keeps asking’, does it Rebel?
Athanasius was hailed often as Catholic Truth’s ‘Lead Blogger’. And while he is certainly free to blog as often (or as little) as he likes, it was simply glaringly obvious that he had disappeared! The Editor, however, as usual has double standards. Nothing new there folks!! Why? Well, when I asked Torkay (who gave me a polite answer I might add) what his interest in Scotland was, the Editor arrives with her bold type with the following:
“Torkay has shown much more interest in the Church in Scotland than you have, Guardian Angel. He blogs regularly unlike you. You tend to appear when it suits you and it usually suits you, it seems, when things are being stirred.”
So now interest in the Church = blogging on CT! That will be the day Editor, that WILL be the day! LOL. Following that logic poor old Athanasius seem to have no interest at all in the Church. -
Guardian Angel,
Don’t be daft. Athanasius is busy writing articles, he tells me, not least for his column with The Remnant. I’m sure if there is any other reason for his absence that he wants to share it with you, Guardian Angel, he’ll come on and tell you. (He may have forgotten about “that vote”…)
Now, please contribute positively to this blog – otherwise, take a hike (The West Highland Way is lovely this time of year, they say).
N O T I C E . . .
I see that this thread is drying up a little, so, rather than post a comment here, to make several points that I feel have been overlooked in the thread article, I’ve gone back into the thread article to add some further commentary in red. See if you can spot the new commentary and – well … comment on the points, so far not mentioned in the discussion.
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Editor
Always happy to contribute – you know that.Oh, there’s that vote thing AGAIN. Change the record. It was YOUR suggestion to drop that one. So please try – for ONCE – to be consistent, there’s a good girl….
Editor: “girl” – shucks, you’ve made my day, Sugar Plum! But don’t forget, it’s a girl’s right to change her mind, Honey Bunch. Luv ‘n stuff…
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Hey, listen up everyone! I’ve been put in moderation!! Not sure why, maybe its because CT doesn’t like the TRUTH after all!! lol. The Editor makes Stalin look rather tame…
Editor: you’ve been put in moderation because of your failure to engage in discussion of the issues. If you’re not fixated on absent bloggers, you’re fixated on me. And nasty personal remarks like the above, don’t help either. Try calling Fr Z or Damien Thompson “dictators” and see how long you last on those blogs. Unless your future posts are concentrated on the issues, your comments will be deleted. End of.
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“It also has to be said that there is little spontaneous demand from Catholics for Mass in the extraordinary form. Such provision as there is, some of it long-standing, centrally located and prime-timed on a Sunday morning, is vastly under-used.”
Editor has already said that there was no demand for a New Mass in the 60s. Bishop Tartaglia is being a little mischevious by giving the impression that there is a “long-standing, centrally located and prime-timed” TLM on a Sunday morning in his diocese. The Bishop is, of course, referring to Sacred Heart in Bridgeton which is in the Archdiocese of Glasgow (although for me, central Glasgow would mean Saint Andrew’s Cathedral, Saint Aloysius or Saint Mungo’s). There is no TLM in the Diocese of Paisley. Mischevious.
“They explicitly deny the teaching of the Second Vatican Council on ecumenism and on religious freedom.”
The bishop gets all mixed up here. These false doctrines are the fruits of the principles of the French Revolution, which, as the bishop admits later on in the article, infiltrated the Church. Modernism, remember, is the synthesis of all heresies. Saint Pius X would not accept any congratulations for defeating Modernism, because he said he had only driven it underground. Unfortunately, it came back with a vengenance.
“The problems in the Church today do not come from the liturgy; they come from a lack of Faith and a spirit of disobedience. ”
It was lack of faith and disobedience, caused by Modernism, that led to the suicide of altering the liturgy. It’s almost as if Bishop Tartaglia has some sort of ecclesiastical autism.
“And these are the result of hostile philosophical trends which originated in the 18th and 19th centuries, and which came to fruition in the 20th century.”
Yes, and it was these hostile philosophical trends that infiltrated the Church, were given a free reign at Vatican II and brought us those false doctrines of ecumenism and Religious Liberty. The bishop just can’t make the link, can he?
“Mass in whatever form nourishes the Faith of those who participate but may not prevent evil things from undermining the Church. Faith and holiness are the antidotes to the Church’s problems, not a wholesale return to an earlier form of the Mass. ”
The bishop is all mixed up, isn’t he? Why are seminaries closing? Why are parishes closing? Why are our priests frequenting gay bars or red light districts? It’s because they are not receiving graces from the Novus Ordo Mass. The Novus Ordo is like a disease that eats away at faith and holiness. The only antidote is the Traditional Mass.
“Priests do not routinely set up unworthy liturgies. My experience of priests in my own diocese and elsewhere is that they try to offer worship which is celebrated according to liturgical norms, which is devout, which communicates the mysteries of the Catholic Faith, which is accessible and participative, and which includes the best music they have in their parish resources. ”
It’s all very shallow, isn’t it? All about feeling nice and asking each other, “how was it for you?” Do you notice how low the standards are? That’s what the Novus Ordo does, lowers standards. Traditional priests don’t need to try to offer something that is devout with the Traditional Mass. I also hate the word ‘participative’. The problem with the modern Catholic is that if you’re not singing, playing a guitar, reading, serving on the altar, reading intercessions, committing sacrilege by touching the Blessed Sacrament, then you’re not participating. Whatever happened to simply saying your prayers. Modern Catholicism is a religion of great pride.
As the editor said earlier, Mass is primarily an offering to the Father – the most perfect act of WORSHIP. Yes, we are nourished by it, but it’s not an alcoholics anonymous or weight watchers meeting that we go to feel better about ourselves. It’s not an opportunity to show off our talents – a kind of “Catholics Have Talent”. I find it deeply offensive for someone to suggest that because I’m sitting with my family, following my missal and saying my prayers then I’m not participating.
The bishop should take the lead. To be fair, Bishop Tartaglia has greatly improved the episcopal liturgies. But let’s be honest, with a Novus Ordo Mass that’s like putting a paper bag over an ugly person’s face. It only masks the ugliness.
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Warriorpoet,
Welcome to the blog. It would be good if you made it along to the Home Education event on the 27th. It would be good to get as many Catholic families as possible to attend. I am interested in what you say about having to travel to California for the Sacraments. Would you be able to tell us a bit more about that? There are two SSPX chapels here in Scotland. Would you not be able to attend there?
Editor,
Re what Bp Tartaglia says about the young priest whose vocation come out of the Mass as it is today, I would think that he is a rare exception. There are no longer any seminaries in Scotland. Young people are not bashing the doors down to try their vocations to the priesthood and religious life. However, before the New Mass was imposed on us, there were lots of vocations, and the SSPX still manages to be getting young men answer the Call.
The SSPX holds the view that the New Mass and Sacraments are at worst, still valid when said properly by a priest who intends to do what the Church asks of him. Therefore, I would tend to accept that position. However, I agree with Bp Williamson that, while they might still be valid, they are designed to become defective over time. The New Missal has given rise to the belief that the Mass is a kind of Memorial Meal, with the priest as president of the liturgical assembly, and a heavy emphasis on active participation from the Faithful. The rubrics and the words of Consecration direct people to this belief. I think this is the main reason why there would seem to be no interest in the TLM. It is based on an erroneous understanding of the Catholic theology of the Mass. Imagine a dinner party where the host stands with his back to the guest and mumbles away to himself in a long-dead language no-one else can understand. Not much of a dinner party, is it? Compare that to the TLM Mass which leaves no doubt that the Mass is the unbloody Sacrifice of Calvary, offered anew on the altar. The priest, acting in persona Christi, offers the Sacrifice as an expiation for sin, while the role of the Faithful is similar to that of Our Blessed Lady and St John the Evangelist on Calvary- to assist by raising the heart and mind to Almighty God. Active participation from the Faithful is not necessary, as only the priest can offer the Sacrifice, just as Our lady and St John were not themselves crucified. It is not just the faithful who hold this dangerous belief; I am of the opinion that a good part of the priesthood thinks this too.
It is the bishops who have allowed this to happen, and it is up to them to lead from the front. With the proper education a better understanding of the Mass will grow, and people will see that it is only expressed adequately by the Mass of all time. They may find there will be virtually no demand for the Novus Ordo.
In the text, His Lordship refers to “hostile philosophical trends which originated in the 18th and 19th centuries, and which came to fruition in the 20th century.” I wonder what exactly he is referring to. Could his Lordship be referring to the rise of Liberalism emerging from the French Revolution? If this is the case, then I wholeheartedly agree. Or does he mean the firm response that came from the pre-concilliar popes? I find one can never quite tell with modern bishops.
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Oh dear, a thread of rants, insults and malice. At first I thought ‘business as usual’ in CT land! But that would be the understatement of the year! Petrus still trying his best to cultivate the ‘Bishop hates the TLM’ myth. Ignoring any evidence to the contrary: inviting priests to advise him if they would like to arrange training, communicating with parishioners’ requests for a TLM (albeit a very small number) and trying to move forward, openly declaring his love of the Mass in ANY form! And the Editor! Wow, what a diatribe against other bloggers who propose an alternative interpretation to the mistress!!! What power you wield over others to try to ‘win’ your arguments…the moderation box…the bold type…and now the red type!!! You must be one happy wee wumin! But not as happy as this one cos I got a special mention from Petrus! Shucks! That made my day! But don’t worry guys, I’m just passing through. This site is just not good for the soul. (Although I will keep checking in now and then to see if Petrus ever has the guts to publish the complete and unedited version of his year long communication with his Bishop! Now that would be something worth reading.) Now go play nicely with the boys and girls…
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Grignion
In true doublespeak fashion, he probably means both!
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McEwan
I’ve nothing to hide. In fact, most of the material has been published. Whatever can you mean?
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Petrus and Grignion,
your posts above are outstanding – spectacular. There are some nuggets in there and I am deeply impressed. You’re both clearly angling for a pay rise. Keep trying…
To move from your insightful, knowledgeable posts to the unpleasant personal attacks in the post from McEwan, was quite an experience.
Yip, McEwan. I’m a REALLY happy wee wummin! I’m glad you could sense that. If only I could say the same about you, Sugar Plum. It’s the Feast of Our Lady of Lourdes today – why not pray for a cure? (Joke!)
Luv ‘n stuff…
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“it’s a girl’s right to change her mind”
Editor — From one gal to another, ABSOLUTELY! It’s interesting how all of these detractors NEVER address any of the contentions made. Because they have nothing of substance to communicate, they cowardly attack ones character. Those who sincerely love truth, will not be afraid to have a mature discussion, of facts, reasonings and principles.
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Oh dear, a thread of rants, insults and malice.
Isn’t it amazing how accurately the liberals describe themselves, as they attempt (and fail) to distract from the issue at hand?
My experience of priests in my own diocese and elsewhere is that they try to offer worship which is celebrated according to liturgical norms, which is devout, which communicates the mysteries of the Catholic Faith, which is accessible and participative, and which includes the best music they have in their parish resources.
Notice the clever use of the loophole “try,” and the phrase “the best music they have in their parish resources.” To translate: “priests in my diocese don’t have a clue as to what constitutes true Catholic worship, but at least they’re trying.” And “yes, the music they use should really be sung in sleazy nightclubs, but that’s all they can afford. We would never think of establishing universal standards for sacred music in my diocese.”
As has been said a million times on this blog, the NO does not communicate the mysteries of the Catholic faith, even when correctly celebrated. And a Catholic Mass is neither “accessible” nor “participative” – at least, not in the Marxist framework which Vatican II created for it.
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Novus Ordo music has rightfully been mentioned as “crappy” a few times on this thread and it made me recollectl the music that I witnessed while growing up in the NO. Even then, I knew it was pure junk!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cy3pCdjN5F4
Day by Dayhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cy3pCdjN5F4
Morning has Brokenhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbSuyPB57GQ
Let There be Peace on Earth -
Correction for the second link above:
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Thanks for the invite, I will certainly come along. We are sedevacantist so we wouldn’t go to SSPX. I can’t believe that we are the only sedevantists in Scotland though (and no I’m not here to push my views on anyone, been used to being in a chapel where it was only the family who run the chapel and a few others who share that view),so if any one knows of any sympathetic priest please get in touch. A lot of the people who attended chapel in California used to go to SSPX (think that many of them just changed to be near Mel Gibson!!!) and Father Procopio did say we should go if we couldn’t get another priest rather than be without but I prefer just to keep praying that we will find a priest here or we will just continue to split our time between here California and going down to a mass in Norfolk.
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“As has been said a million times on this blog, the NO does not communicate the mysteries of the Catholic faith…”
Editor: not just on this blog. That’s a fact that has been covered by many writers. Have you read Cardinal Ratzinger’s description of it as a “banal on the spot production”? (Preface of the French edition of Mgr Klaus Gamber’s classic work “The Destruction of the Roman Liturgy”.
This comment from Torkay is an example of why the campaign of CT is going nowhere. I believe that the representations to Rome have been filed under ‘NA’ – no action.
Editor: on what basis do you say this? You’ve obviously not seen my Rome file…
Can someone confirm this? (Editor: nobody can confirm that Rome has filed us under NA – not without telling porky pies) Has anyone had a positive response? (Editor: yes, me) And did any of the Bishops get their backside kicked at the Ad Limina?? (Editor: now that WOULD be telling…) I don’t think so…..and I’m not surprised if that’s your tactical starting point! (Editor: our “tactical starting point” is that the Faith is dying out in Scotland, sunshine. That is where we begin and why we keep going despite the apathy and acceptance of dissent and liturgical abuse by people like yourself, who are complicit in extending the current crisis.)
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Editor
You suggest that my spritiual life is not equal to that of Petrus. (Editor: did I? Oh dear.) What evidence do you have of that? (Editor: I think you’ve misinterpreted what I said so I won’t bother posting the evidence, Sugar Plum.) Your judgemental rants seem to fly in the face of your directions to bloggers not to judge others’ souls. (Editor: I’m a rascal, I really am.) Parading one’s devotional practices for all to see is commented on in the Gospels, is it not? (Editor: so is “don’t hide your light beneath a bushel” Honey Bunch.)
You say I could take classes in being wrong. (Editor: I said, because you could make a fortune. Only trying to help you in this recession) Such certainty and arrogance on your behalf is rather disturbing. Anyone who disagrees with you is automatically wrong. (Editor: you noticed that, too?) You are not Stalin’s granny, are you? (Editor: shucks, you say the nicest things. No. But I’m Christopher’s auntie if that helps)
Your deliberate diversionary tactics in mentioning another subject altogether is rather tedious. (Editor: oops, sorry….)
What qualifications do you have to pronounce that Petrus is more likely to get to Heaven then I am? (Editor: well, I’ve got a Master of Theology, if that’s any good…) Surely this kind of judgement on your behalf is sinful in the extreme? (Editor: worry not – I’ll be going to Confession soon…)
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“Has anyone had a positive response?”
I letter I received from Mgr Camille Perl, formerly of Ecclesia Dei, was published in Catholic Truth. In this letter, Mgr Perl urges me to correct Bishop Tartaglia’s selective cherry picking of the Holy Father’s comments. Indeed, Mgr Perl instructed ME, a mere layman, to point Bishop Tartaglia in the right direction.
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warriorpoet,
You are, of course, welcome to attend our homeschooling meeting, as I’ve already said and I’m glad to see that other bloggers have also encouraged you to come along.
However, I must emphasise that we are not even remotely sedevacantist.
Indeed, we ran a blog thread on the subject some time ago, which I urge you to read
http://www.catholictruthscotland.com/blog/?p=1336#commentsWe don’t want to divert this discussion from the topic in hand, so please do not respond. If you wish to comment on the sedevacantist thread, please feel free to do so and someone will converse with you there.
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Petrus
Thanks for that, but I was thinking more about Rome. Given all the encouragement to supply Rome with heaps of evidence, was much actually sent?
Editor: I know of several people who wrote. However, as I explained in my own letter to Rome, many people told me that they felt it was not worth writing since nothing ever happens. Nothing changes. I said that in my letter.
I ask this because I was shown 3 documents today (which I won’t expand on to protect the source) which suggest rather strongly that Rome, contrary to what Editor suggests above has, in fact, sidelined a lot of material they receive marking it as ’suspect’. Rome, it seems, has cottoned on that something is afoot.
Editor: my own sources have warned me that it is a bit “hit and miss” if material gets into the wrong hands. The Vatican, as you must know, is as divided as the rest of the Church and the Modernist/Homosexual influence is very strong. That they have been known to “lose” material, is old news.
However, the most recent document of the 3 refers to another group. In the margins the material is marked ‘there is no connection between this group and the previously discredited submissions’.
Editor: none of the letters that I have seen – including, of course, my own – can possibly be discredited since they contained clear documentation – chapter and verse.
Cathedralman, the response of the Editor to your post should come as no surprise. I’ve been placed in moderation – as I bet you have! When faced with a view other than her own the tactic is ridicule and childish response – isn’t that right Editor, my lovely sweet pea?
Editor: you have been placed in moderation, Guardian Angel, precisely because of remarks like the last sentence. Personal, rather nasty, comments, are not permitted and any obvious trouble-making. That is my judgement to make. It is patent nonsense to say that you’ve been placed in moderation because you don’t agree with me. You’ve disagreed with me a million times and not been placed in moderation. Cathedralman seldom, if ever, enters into discussion of the issues and only wants to attack various bloggers – notably Petrus, interestingly, so that is not on. If you don’t like being moderated, you are free to blog elsewhere. I’ll live. And before you rant on about me answering questions addressed to Petrus, allow me to remind you that your comments refer to Catholic Truth correspondence. -
Sorry hadn’t seen the previous thread on the site or i wouldn’t have posted at all…as I said we are fairly recent converts and the Catholics we are used to being with all get along well and although each of us know how the other feel which on many issues can be very different and poles apart,we are all linked by the Mass we attend and in agreement about Vatican II. My intention was not cause disruption or ill will. I had only just come across the site whilst searching again for a priest and noticed the interesting discussion…guess I will stick to the U.S. sites
Apologies and God Bless -
warriorpoet
I think you’ve maybe misinterpreted the editor’s comment. As far as I am aware, there are no sedevacantists on this blog. Catholic Truth certainly rejects the error of sedevacantism. That doesn’t mean to say you are not welcome on the blog, or at the homeschooling meeting. I think the editor made that quite clear.
You are welcome here, warriorpoet, I am sure everyone else would agree with me there.
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Yes, Petrus, of course warriorpoet is welcome to blog here (and to attend the home-schoolers meeting) but I guess blogging would be difficult, since we are diametrically opposed in the matter of the post-Vatican II popes.
As long as we are not constantly having to battle that argument, of course everyone is welcome here. -
I’ve been thinking a lot today about why Modernists cannot engage in debate with us, why they hate us so much and why they resort to personal attack. I think the answer is doctrine. Modernism is the absence of doctrine; an anti-doctrine actually.
In fact, Modernism is satanic. I remember Fr Kramer spoke at the Conference about how Modernism has its roots in Communism, which has its roots in the French Revolution, which in turn has its roots in Protestant. The forefather is all these errors in Freemasonry, which has its roots in paganism. Satanism is, of course, the parent organisation of paganism. This is why Modernism is described as “the synthesis of all heresies”.
The principles of the French Revolution, liberty, equality and fraternity are evident in all of the above errors. Modernism is the liberation from ideas, from doctrine. That is why the Modernists cannot engage with us and that is why they hate us so much – they are totally void of doctrine/ideas. They have liberated themselves from ideas. How tragic.
I think we see this scenario in the Garden of Eden. The serpent used “liberty, equality and fraternity” to tempt Adam and Eve. “You will be like God”. Indeed, Modernism is based on pride, the worship of self. A Modernist is totally liberated from God. Tragic.
This all explains why our critics cannot engage in any sort of debate. They are void of ideas. The self-obsessed can only fight their battles by attacking us personally, because their god is themselves.
Bishop Tartaglia seems to be touching on something when he talks of the ideologies of the 18th and 19th centuries. However, it goes a lot deeper than that. We have a real battle on our hands and the enemy is the Devil. The Devil was given an inch and he has taken a mile. Look at Vatican II and the post-conciliar aftermath – “liberty, equality anf fraternity” personified. Look at individual parishes – “liberty, equality anf fraternity” personified. Truly tragic.
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Petrus,
That is a brilliant comment at 7.34 pm. I agree with everything you say.
What do you think about Guardian Angel’s claim that somebody in Rome sidelined letters sent for the ad limina? I would be fizzing if I thought the letter I had taken the trouble to write was made to disappear by some low-level priest in the Vatican. I thought the idea was more lay involvement in the post Vatican II Church?
I wonder if anybody sent copies of the Herald front page where the editor was quoted? If so, they can’t write Catholic Truth off as “suspect”. I do hope somebody sent that edition of the paper to Rome before the ad limina.
I also know from a priest friend that it doesn’t mean anything if you don’t get a reply from Rome. He says they act behind the scenes and even if you never hear back, it doesn’t mean they didn’t bother about your letter. He also said you should send copies to every congregation then it is sure to reach somebody.
I agree with James who wrote that Bishop Tartaglia’s article shows they are really worried about Catholic Truth and they wouldn’t be worried if the group wasn’t having an effect.
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Petrus,
That’s been my experience generally when discussing things with liberals. They have a terrible habit of personalising everything. Everything is subjective and objectivity has no place whatsoever. All you have to do is look at some of the posts above. Editor has had to put people into moderation for getting highly personal and I’m reminded of when we had the Grand Debate just before Christmas. The atheist debater went straight in for a vulgar insult in his first post- “sex-starved virgins.”
Miles posted on another thread Bp Williamson discussing this issue. Everything the bishop says in that clip is true.
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I agree with rebel, Petrus – excellent post on the (lack of true) liberty, equality and fraternity and the reason we are hated so much. We’ve got two different religions now, one of them masquerading as Catholicism. Lawyer and author, Christopher Ferrara called the modernist Church “Counterfeit Catholicism” – can’t think of a better description.
rebel,
I sent copies, myself, of the 18th January Herald (not just the front page – the whole paper, with brief covering letter to draw attention to the extensive coverage inside) and I sent it to most, if not all, of the Vatican Congregations. So, worry not. You can’t say a national newspaper is “suspect” when it reports liturgical divisions within the Church in Scotland which everyone knows exist anyway. Therefore, logically, you can’t say the sender is “suspect” – that’s what’s known in intellectual circles as “shooting the messenger”.
Thing is, folks, If we’re in the wrong, if we are damaging the Church or souls, then the clergy have a duty to tell us. To date, these are the number of rebukes/pleas to stop/explanations about why we are in the wrong, received in the Catholic Truth office = 0 – nil from clergy, nil from laity. Nasty anonymous messages, by the ton. But rational argument? Zero.
We have no case to answer.
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Liberty = license; man without the “shackles” of civilization.
Equality = destruction of all hierarchy, esp. within the Church.
Fraternity = the brotherhood of Freemasons who engineered the French Revolution.What this slogan really means is:
Narcissism
Anarchy
Tyrannywhich are, it just so happens, the 3 necessary ingredients for the New World Order.
Modernism is not only the absence of doctrine, it is the absence of anything objective. Reality is whatever the modernist individual claims it is; likewise for morality, conscience, religion, and the social contract.
So the only thing left, in the absence of objectivity, is subjective, sensation-based irrationality and emotion. Hence the lack of reasoned thought and the dominant mode of ad hominem outburst.
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This comment from Torkay [“As has been said a million times on this blog, the NO does not communicate the mysteries of the Catholic faith…”] is an example of why the campaign of CT is going nowhere.
Actually, Guardian Angel, it is the Church, the Church in Scotland in this case, which is going nowhere, thanks to the schemes of its enemies as perpetrated at Vatican II.
If the NO communicates the mysteries of the Catholic Faith, then why do hardly any Catholics believe in the Real Presence anymore? Why are laity handling the Blessed Sacrament (both as Extraordinary Ministers and as parishioners)? Why do most parishioners dress like slobs at Mass? Why are priests performing their duties at the altar – excuse me, at the ironing board – so casually? Why is Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament dispensed like a movie ticket to a standing line of parishioners? And with the denuded statement “The Body of Christ,” instead of the correct prayer, “May the Body of Our Lord Jesus Christ preserve thy soul unto life everlasting.”?
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Tyrell’s offspring?
http://www.amdg.ie/2010/02/09/jesuit-theologians-response-to-murphy-report/
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Oliver Rafferty SI of Heythrop on Modernism & Tyrell
“One of the most important modernists was a Jesuit priest and theologian, George Tyrrell. Tyrrell, an Anglo-Irish convert to Catholicism, was convinced that if Christianity was to appear meaningful to the modern world then it must speak its message in a language that made sense to modern men and women. In particular he believed that Catholicism had to shed the vestiges of scholastic theology and philosophy in which the Catholic faith had been articulated since the 13th century.
Like his friend and chief collaborator Maude Petre, Tyrrell was convinced that Catholic dogma was not absolute truth. Instead he thought religion was an inner experience whereby God touched the depths of the individual soul. In Tyrrell’s view so much of what passed for Catholicism was an arid assertion of supposed certainties which if closely examined led to contempt for religion on the part of the average thinking person.”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/mar/27/christianity
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An excellent article by Professor Neri Capponi on the Crises in the History of the Church.
“When asked why I believe the crisis we now face [he's writing in 1995] is worse than Arianism, I give these reasons:
(a) The principle vehicle of the faith, the liturgy, was untouched by the Arian crisis;
(b) whereas the Arian crisis was precipitated and sustained by the intervention of secular power, the post Vatican II crisis comes from within the Church and is therefore more difficult to fight;
(c) in the fourth century, Pope Liberius finally signed the excommunication of St. Athanasius under duress—in the twentieth century Pope Paul VI was admittedly taken in and hoodwinked by his misguided optimism, but there was no duress;
(d) the present crisis is not only one of faith but of morals as well. In addition, today not only one dogma, albeit a very important one, is denied as with Arianism, but all dogmas, be it even the existence of a personal God!
==the whole article is worth reading and can be found at:
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Benet,
I’ve said loads of time that the current crisis is much worse than the Arian crisis…
To think that a Jesuit agrees with me!
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Benet
That quote from Oliver Rafferty echos the sentiments of Bishop Williamson in that video Miley posted – as he hilariously acted out the deep interior sentiments of modernists.
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They seem to be fascinated with Tyrell at Heythrop – even organising a conference to mark 100 years of his death in 2009. Details below:
http://www.amdg.ie/2009/02/03/george-tyrrell-revisited/
“Fr George Tyrrell SJ, born in Dublin but a member of the English Province, died in England 100 years ago, expelled from the Society and excommunicated from the Church for his Modernist theology. A conference to mark the centenary of his death will take place on 19-20 June in Heythrop College (pictured here). Tyrrell was a man of penetrating intellect and deep concern for the state of theology in the Church, and his pioneering work has made a positive contribution to theology since Vatican II. Sadly he was refused Catholic burial, though he did receive last rites. For more about Tyrrell and the conference, read below.
CENTENARY CONFERENCE ON GEORGE TYRELL
A conference to mark the centenary of the death of one of the most remarkable Jesuits ever produced by the English Province, as it then was, will be held at Heythrop College on 19th and 20th June, 2009.”
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Well, well, well. Last week’s SCO had the above article by Bishop Tartaglia, in which he worries about those “militant ultra-traditional groupings” and today we have this from Archbishop Conti, in an article (first in two part series) about the Mass…
“There are questions on the nature of the Mass being asked again. The reforms of the litrugy of the Second Vatican Concil are being questioned, not only in respect of the implementation of those reforms, but the actual validity of the reforms themselves in terms of their fidelity to tradition and their pastoral effectiveness.
Though these questions and complaints are being voiced by a very small group, some of whom are clearly antipathetical to the whole thrust of the Second Vatican Council, their voice is strident and upsetting to those who seek to follow the path set out for us in the documents of the council and in the instructions which over the years have consistently followed them. What follows is not a defence of the council; it needs no defence…”
WOW! Who on EARTH are these groups (Bp Tartaglia) / this “strident group” (Archbishop Conti)? I DO wish they’d tell us. And VII “needs no defence”? Is he kidding? It is indefensible the way bishops like himself have used VII to dupe the laity into believing – for example – that the Church wants their priests to rip out altar rails and hide the Tabernacle in a corner somewhere away from the sanctuary. The Counterfeit Vatican II Council needs a lot of defending.
But, LOL – “following the path set out in the documents of the council and in the instructions which followed those documents”? Our bishops have consistently IGNORED all the instructions to stop the use of lay people giving out Holy Communion, to encourage kneeling and reception on the tongue…. It is just incredible: how Archbishop Conti could write that article with a straight face is beyond my comprehension.
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Peter said to him,
“Why can I not follow you now? I will lay down my life for you.”
“Lay down your life for me?” answered Jesus.
In all truth I tell you, before the cock crows you will have disowned me three times.”Peter was so sure he would be there beside the Lord. He would never desert him. It could be called a proud, arrogant, fullness within/of himself.
Could it be that such pride and arrogance, fullness of ourselves rather than gentle humility in obedience to the Word made flesh, is what is running rampant in our country (and other areas of the world) and strongly so in today’s priests and bishops?Very seldom will you see 2 priests say the Novus Ordo exactly the same. They have their own wee bits to added, their mark to make. Yet nowhere in the rite is this authorized/permission given. This is one of the foul fruits of N.O.
So what do we need to address, to realize?
The Mass, in whatever form, is
– The worship of God
– through the re-enacting of the Sacrifice of Christ
– for the forgiveness of sin.Sadly, we seem to have lost sight that this is what the Mass is and have allowed peripheral actions to dominate the Mass so losing sight of what we are celebrating – worshipping God through the perfect sacrifice for the forgiveness of sin.
Peripheral parts are not to be scorned, demeaned, but they must only be as secondaries and firmly kept as such. The Mass is the Worship of God, not an education practice for those attending. Yes, through going to Mass we are educated in the way of the Lord, (scripture readings) but this is a result of the desire to worship God.
If we lose this desire to worship, – not simply being at Mass, but being focused on Jesus’ presence, showing an awe, wonder at this presence, a stillness and silence, so allowing the Spirit of God to speak to our spirit so giving us a strength, peace and inner fortitude, then we are in grave danger of being the seed that falls on patches of rock where they there was little soil, sprung up at once, but because there was no depth of earth when the sun came up was scorched and withered.
If we are honest with ourselves, the Church, in the western world has been so keen to “spring up” with the Novus Ordo that sadly in the last 2/3/4 decades there has been an awful withering – numbers at Mass, priests, vocations, participation in the Sacraments. FACT!
Whilst not only due to the Novus Ordo, the fact that, after its introduction, and since its introduction, there has been such decline gives cause to ask, does the Novus Ordo draw us to worship God with humility in His presence through the perfect sacrifice of Christ, or through huge diversification, have we become a gathering where we have convinced ourself we are worshipping.
As Mgr Peter Smith said in a recent letter to the Herald, “I believe statistics can help us gauge the truth.” Mgr, I completely agree with you.
But let us, as bishops and priests also admit/face truth; the decline in the Church, as shown by statistics, since the introduction of Novus Ordo is frightening!
Bishop Tartaglia, Archbishop Conti, Mgr Smith, accept this; look at the facts since the changes with Novus Ordo and “act in communiom with the See of Peter, the Universal Church so that pastoral initiatives take due account of this essential dimension to bring authentic renewal. When the bonds of communion with the universal Church, and in particular with Rome are accepted joyfully and lived fully, the people’s faith can grow freely and yield a harvest of good works.” (Pope Benedict to we, Scots, 5th Feb 2010)
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Scotus Priest
I’m delighted that you’re back chatting with us!
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Scotus Priest,
Thank you for posting that. I agree with your sentiments exactly.
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…does the Novus Ordo draw us to worship God with humility in His presence through the perfect sacrifice of Christ…?
No. It was designed to do the opposite: make worship an individualistic, Protestantized fellowship, drained of all Catholic mystery and identity. You know, that same lack of Catholic identity characterized by +Conti’s article, and +Tartaglia article.
And by the way, it makes me sick to have to put the “+” in front of their names.
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Torkay,
Who was it said: “It iis no accident that the symbol of a bishop is a crook, and the sign of an archbishop is a double-cross.”?
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I don’t know Ed, but how apropos!
So uh, what would the symbol for a Catholic Truth blogger be? (that is, for those not in moderation or the doghouse…)
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Answer, Torkay: a ray of sunshine…
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