Pioneers of Traditionalism used to remark that God will not be mocked for long. They were right, of course, and are being proven so every day now. In a matter of months we have seen the mighty Spirit of Vatican II fundamentally exposed, the canonization of John Paul ‘the Great’ stall, the Traditional Mass come storming back, and the Holy Father obviously deliberating over when to leap from the leaky lifeboat of progressivism back onto the barge of holy Tradition.
Michael Davies used to say that the New Mass would simply consume itself over time, having nothing inherent apart from novelty to sustain it . That doesn’t seem so far fetched any more, especially since our Modernist friends, having grown as passé as hippies, their liturgy as stale as a bowl of Digger Stew, seem to have run out of new ideas.
This point was made recently in Dr. Robert Moynihan’s excellent report on the historic traditional Mass at the National Shrine in Washington, D.C. In an article entitled “Solemn Latin Mass in Washington stirs change in Catholic liturgy,” the editor of Inside the Vatican writes:
But at least one Vatican official I talked to, also in the past month, told me he believes the future is solely and exclusively in a return to the old rite. “The old rite is our past, and it will be our future,” he told me. “The new Mass is a passing phase. In 50 years, that will be entirely clear.”
Whatever the case may be, one thing is certain: The Church finds herself at historic crossroads at this moment. Contrary to media claims, Pope Benedict is not yet a traditionalist per se (though the yapping media jackals seem to be backing him rapidly into that corner), but serious Catholics know full well that the attempted lynching of our Holy Father is part of a global initiative to criminalize the traditional Catholicism he now represents, at least in the eyes of a world that understands few of the distinctions involved. Click here to read more
This thread is not meant to be a means of annoying modern Catholics who are happy with the new Mass. Allow me to say, in passing, that it is a matter of immense puzzlement to many of us that any Catholic can be satisfied with a Mass that was concocted by a priest/archbishop discovered to be a Freemason, actively supported by six Protestant ministers, the express aim being to remove anything and everything that is an obstacle to our separated brothers and sisters in various Protestant communities. In any event, this thread is not about “the Mass” per se, but about the overall state of the Church which now finds itself the focus of almost unceasing and unfriendly (to say the least) media attention following the child/young person abuse scandals. I think we can all agree, surely, that the Church is, indeed, at a crossroads, and a crossroads always presents us with a choice to be made.
We can continue on the same road, despite all the signposts along the way to indicate we’ve got it wrong. We can take another dodgy turn, unsure of whether or not it will take us to our destination. Or we can go back to where we started out, and take a fresh look at the whole journey. Tell us your thoughts – click on ‘comments’ now.
Tags: Novus Ordo, pope benedict xvi, second vatican council, Traditional Mass
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Church at crossroads: where to now? For what it’s worth – and I’m no-one special or important – I came to my personal crossroads about a year ago. I am a convert – the 25th anniversary of my reception into the Church will be on 28 July 2010. I have been attending the TLM (on Sundays) since the mid ’90’s but kept struggling with the Novus Ordo during the week (and it was a Latin Novus Ordo – ad orientem, kneeling for communion, communion on the tongue, etc) but for over a year I have made the decision not to attend the Novus Ordo anymore and I am happy with this decision. I truly believe that the TLM will be our future. I’m 49 years old now and may not live to see its full restoration, but that doesn’t matter. It will happen, of that I am convinced.
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I became an aspirant in a local Discalced Carmelite Third Order community last year. The more I attend monthly meetings, the more I notice a certain spiritual deadness among the members, and in their (non-traditional) liturgical functions. They are all quite devout, yet their faith appears to have been robbed of something quite essential. I wish I knew how to describe that missing element, but I don’t. Joy? The mystery of faith? A sense of the sacred?
I notice the same spiritual dearth in October Rosary rallies. The mainstream (“Novus Ordodox”) Catholics straggle out in few numbers and scarcely bear witness to their faith. The traditionalists come out en masse, like soldiers, bearing their Our Lady of Fatima statue with great care and reverence, full of life. Full of CATHOLIC life – in battle array.
So to me, the crossroads has become a choice between spiritual life and spiritual death; between Catholic zeal and “neither hot nor cold”; between true Catholic identity and identity crisis.
This demarcation is stark to me, but apparently not so for most of the laity or the clergy. I think one way to draw the line more clearly would be to publicize the Third Secret….and then watch Satan’s propaganda machine, the world’s media, REALLY panic…
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(I’m not happy with the conclusion I just made, so to clarify: the purpose of revealing the Third Secret would be to set in motion a sharper awareness of the emptiness and desacralization of the Novus Ordo mentality. Then follow that immediately by the Consecration of Russia.)
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Torkay,
I realise this Blog would never be mistaken for a branch of The Pope John Paul II fan club, but are you actually calling him a liar? I understood he had revealed the Third Secret. Since you believe a further revelation would have dramatic consequences, what do you think it contains? And on what evidence?
I don’t think it is helpful to think of the Church as being at a crossroads. That image implies the chance of it taking a wrong turning. The Holy Spirit will not allow that.
Eileenanne
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Eileenanne
Just like you, I’m very uneasy calling anyone a liar, nevermind a pope. What we can say is that we know beyond any reasonable doubt that only PART of the Third Secret was revealed in 2000. There are many, many statements from eminent clergy that support the existence of two envelopes, one containing the vision this was released in 2000) and one containing the explanation given by Our Lady. You can read all about it here:
http://www.devilsfinalbattle.com/content.htm
This should answer “what do you think it contains? And on what evidence?”. But have a look at the following statements for a synopsis.
” I am worried by the Blessed Virgin’s messages to Lucy of Fatima. This persistence of Mary about the dangers which menace the Church is a divine warning against the suicide of altering the Faith, in Her liturgy, Her theology and Her soul. … I hear all around me innovators who wish to dismantle the Sacred Chapel, destroy the universal flame of the Church, reject Her ornaments and make Her feel remorse for Her historical past.
A day will come when the civilized world will deny its God, when the Church will doubt as Peter doubted. She will be tempted to believe that man has become God. In our churches, Christians will search in vain for the red lamp where God awaits them. Like Mary Magdalene, weeping before the empty tomb, they will ask, “Where have they taken Him?”
Cardinal Eugenio Pacelli (Ven Pius XII)
“In the Third Secret it is foretold, among other things, that the great apostasy in the Church will begin at the top.”
… Cardinal Mario Luigi Ciappi, Pope John
Paul II’s personal papal theologian, quoted
in the journal Catholic, March 2002“It [the Third Secret] has nothing to do with Gorbachev. The Blessed Virgin was alerting us against apostasy in the Church.”
… Cardinal Oddi, quoted March 17,
1990, in the journal Il Sabato“Through some crack the smoke of satan has entered into the Church of God.”
… Pope Paul VI, Papal address of
June 30, 1972“We must admit realistically and with feelings of deep pain, that Christians today in large measure feel lost, confused, perplexed and even disappointed; ideas opposed to the truth which has been revealed and always taught are being scattered abroad in abundance; heresies, in the full and proper sense of the word, have been spread in the area of dogma and morals, creating doubts, confusions and rebellion; the liturgy has been tampered with; immersed in an intellectual and moral relativism and therefore in permissiveness, Christians are tempted by atheism, agnosticism, vaguely moral enlightenment and by a sociological Christianity devoid of defined dogmas or an objective morality.”
… Pope John Paul II, quoted in
L’Osservatore Romano,
February 7, 1981“She (the Blessed Virgin Mary) told me that the devil is in the mood for engaging in a decisive battle against the Virgin. And a decisive battle is the final battle where one side will be victorious and the other side will suffer defeat. Also from now on we must choose sides. Either we are for God or we are for the devil. There is no other possibility.”
… Sister Lucy of Fatima speaking
to Father Fuentes,
December 26, 1957I think when you consider the above quotes then it should be quite clear that the Church has taken a wrong turn.
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kevin1,
your post was really honest and so edifying. It is of great interest to me that even the NO in Latin, ad orientem, with Communion kneeling and on the tongue, still didn’t feel right. I identify with that because I was the very same. The Latin NO just made no difference to me at all – I knew it still wasn’t the traditional Mass. It’s got to be all or nothing.
Petrus,
I had read all of those quotes before but they really came together in that post which was just piercing, a really marvellous post which I’m going to copy and save on my computer.
Eileenanne,
I think the posts from Torkay and kevin1, plus those quotes from Petrus, make it really obvious that the Church has taken a wrong turn but I do sympathise with you because, as I know myself, it is just so difficult to face up to the fact. However, the first step to fixing a problem is always to face up to it.
My verdict is to consecrate Russia and then restore the Mass fully to parish life. How, I don’t know, but I think it will all fall into place after the Consecration has been done.
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Madam Editor,
Thank you for such an interesting and balanced introduction to this thread.
First, the liturgy. I am one of those who, while nourishing the deepest respect and affection for the ‘Tridentine’ liturgy as well as for those communities and individual priests who celebrate according to the 1962 liturgical books, do not think that the future of the Roman liturgy will be a return ‘tout court’ to the traditional rites as codified prior to Vatican II. As perhaps I have mentioned before on another thread, I see the future in a Roman rite which will contain elements of both the ‘Tridentine’ books and the liturgy reformed under Paul VI. (That is not to say that I would have any particular problem with those who might, in such a scenario, wish to continue to celebrate using the 1962 books.)
The Church is indeed at a crossroads. The vast process of sterile introspection which began after Vatican II, and of which the liturgy is but only one facet, albeit a very important one, is at an end. Events which have taken place since the election of Pope Benedict make it clear that it is imperative that the Church return to her traditional faith.
The recent legislation from Rome regarding the admission of Anglican communities to the Roman Catholic Church is the tangible sign that Western ecumenism is dead. It remains that we must work and pray earnestly for the Orthodox churches to enter into full communion with the Apostolic See. Naturally, it remains also that we work and pray for the conversion of the Jews.
The time has come for Catholics, from the Pope downwards, to be zealous about the truth of their faith without having to truncate their zeal for reasons connected with ‘dialogue’. We must once again preach the Risen Christ and his offer of mercy and eternal salvation to every man and woman, and Christ accessible in his fullness only through the mediation of his Mystical Body which is the Roman Catholic Church governed by the Successor to the Blessed Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him. Anything else would be less than the Truth of which this wicked world is so greatly in need.
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Torkay (6:26 pm),
The missing element is Truth. It is as simple as that.
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caledonianpriest,
Are you bothered that the new Mass was created by Father Bugnini and six Protestants? I know they tried to say at the beginning that the Protestants were just observers but they themselves admitted to having had actual input. I’m one of those referred to in the thread article, who just cannot understand how any Catholic can accept a Mass that is so different from the Traditional Mass knowing how it came into being.
I know you said you stick to the Roman Eucharistic Prayer and I have no doubt your stick to the rubric, are reverent, etc, but I can’t help wondering how anyone can just ignore the facts about the Freemason Fr Bugnini and those six Protestants.By the way I do agree with just about everything else in your post, except I do think the Church will return to the Traditional Mass (given that it has been replaced as a result of diabolical activity in the Church) but apart from the Mass comments, I agree with everything else you’ve said.
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Eileenanne
In addition to the material posted by Petrus, may I suggest you consult Father Gruner’s website regarding what exactly was revealed and what was not.
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I wonder if it would be more accurate to say that the Church is at a dead end than at a crossroads: the dead end of her Modernist 40-year detour of denying Christ as Peter did.
caledonianpriest
Please elaborate on Truth being the missing element.
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Torkay,
“dead end” suggests there is no way forward. I’m a “glass is half full” typa gal…
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Eileenanne,
Christopher Ferrara’s excellent book on the Third Secret “The Secret Still Hidden” can be found in full on this site:- http://www.secretstillhidden.com/book.html
The diabolical disorientation in the Church that Sr Lucia spoke of so often is there for all to see. I’m praying to Sr Lucia (and Bl Francisco & Jacinta) to intercede for the restoration of the Church.
Just as an aside, if anyone wants free relic prayer cards of Sr Lucia, then write to the Carmel at Coimbra and they will send you some. The address is:- Carmelo de Santa Teresa, 3000-359, Coimbra, Portugal.
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I have just come back from the ‘Catholic hustings’ at the Glasgow University chaplaincy where the mostly pro-abortion, soft-on-assisted-suicide candidates were, for the most part, unchallenged by the Catholics present.
I stood up and reminded people that a Catholic who votes for a candidate who is unequivocally in favour of abortion is laetae sententiae excommunicated. Rather than sensing any agreement on the part of the Catholics there, I was harangued by another Catholic who vehemently opposed me by saying that most Catholics don’t share my beliefs. I countered him by saying that I was referring to Canon Law and the Catechism and not my own opinions.
Hardly a ripple of protest against the pro-abortion views of the candidates was heard. I am genuinely furious and deeply distressed. What hope for a restoration of a Christian civilisation when Catholics have so little regard for the teachings of the Church and so little care for the most defenceless? Not a priest was to be seen either – even though it had been organised by the West End Deanery.
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I have just come back from the ‘Catholic hustings’ at the Glasgow University chaplaincy where the mostly pro-abortion, soft-on-assisted-suicide candidates were, for the most part, unchallenged by the Catholics present.
I stood up and reminded people that a Catholic who votes for a candidate who is unequivocally in favour of abortion is laetae sententiae excommunicated. Rather than sensing any agreement on the part of the Catholics there, I was harangued by another Catholic who vehemently opposed me by saying that most Catholics don’t share my beliefs. I countered him by saying that I was referring to Canon Law and the Catechism and not my own opinions.
Hardly a ripple of protest against the pro-abortion views of the candidates was heard. I am genuinely furious and deeply distressed. What hope for a restoration of a Christian civilisation when Catholics have so little regard for the teachings of the Church and so little care for the most defenceless? Not a priest was to be seen either – even though it had been organised by the West End Deanery.
I’d like to say that if anyone is in Glasgow North then Erin Boyle, the Conservative candidate, was the only strongly pro-life candidate at the hustings. Life takes precedence over every other issue.
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Augustine,
Your post should really be on the General Election thread and it is a pity it’s not because it might get lost on this one.
Anyway, well done for putting your neck on the block. Most, if not all, of the cowardly clergy would run a mile before they did what you did. And there’s no excuse. They are celibates, not least in order to leave them free of wives and family commitments, so they CAN stand up and be counted. I get less and less patient with them as each day passes by and each new scandal rears its ugly head. What on EARTH is wrong with them? Can’t they muster up sufficient courage even to explain that we cannot vote for MPs who tolerate and promote murder?
The chaplain of Glasgow University (whom I believe is still Father John Keenan, wrongly hailed as the most orthodox priest since Cardinal Newman) couldn’t, it seems, care less.
One of our readers has been ringing him regularly for years now, to ask him why he permits all sorts of dissenters a platform – the university chaplaincy advertises dodgy talks from dodgy speakers in the dodgy Catholic press, on a regular basis.
So, no surprise that he let a pro-abortion candidate loose on the students in time to gather votes for the election. Disgraceful. I’ve tolerated people praising this priest’s “orthodoxy” for years now and tried to explain why he is no model of orthodoxy, but from now on, gloves off.
And please – don’t anybody tell me that the chaplain has no authority over these things because in that case he should be making a public statement to denounce these events and submit his resignation. When our reader used to ring Fr Keenan (I think he’s given up now, on my advice) he was fobbed off with all sorts of daft excuses. The simple fact is that Catholic premises are not to be used to undermine Catholic faith and morals. End of.
Of course, as always, the buck stops with Archbishop Conti. He is permitting this abuse of the Glasgow university chaplaincy. One more question for him at judgment.
And of course, the abortion issue is key – the right to life comes first. But the Conservatives, by sacking a candidate who clearly stands firm with Catholic moral teaching on homosexuality, have lost the right to claim the votes of Catholics. Just remember, Augustine, if you are tempted to vote for them, that YOU could not be a Conservative MP – their vetting procedures will make sure of that.
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Editor,
The hustings would have been an ideal opportunity to make the candidates understand the Catholic viewpoint on a great number of issues. But – no. They have gone home thinking that we don’t really care that much. The tepidity amongst the Catholics this evening was appalling. In a sense that is very much about the Church at the crossroads. The next election the parties may think there is no point going to a ‘Catholic hustings’ as the Catholics themselves don’t seem to care.
On Sunday evening there will be a hustings for Glasgow North East at the Immaculate Heart of Mary in Balornock, Glasgow at 7:30pm. Please go and make your voices heard. Be Catholic and ask the candidates difficult questions.
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(woops)
ate Heart of Mary in Balornock, Glasgow at 7:30pm. Please go and make your voices heard. Be Catholic and ask the candidates difficult questions.
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Can’t they muster up sufficient courage even to explain that we cannot vote for MPs who tolerate and promote murder?
I came home and almost felt like weeping, to be honest. It was more than just a let-down that the candidates went mostly unchallenged. It feels like the Catholic faith is now no more than a corpse here in Glasgow. What will be left for our children in 10/20 years?
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Augustine,
I had hoped to go to that hustings meeting, but something came up that prevented me from getting there. My initial reaction when I heard about it, was that it was quite brave of the candidates to submit themselves to a Catholic audience, which, I believed, would be outspoken against many of the things all or most of the candidates stood for. I am so disappointed to read your account of the event.
The editor said:
“So, no surprise that he (Fr Keenan) let a pro-abortion candidate loose on the students in time to gather votes for the election.”
In fairness, I think a hustings with all the parties represented was a good idea and not at all the same as inviting a solitary pro-abortion speaker. (I have no idea whether Fr Keenan has ever done that, but I think it is unlikely.) In this particular circumstance, it was necessary to have all viewpoints represented, but it sounds like a great opportunity to make the Catholic voice heard against the aggressive secularism we find in most politicians was lost.
Eileenanne
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Eileenanne,
You are right to say that the hustings would be a good opportunity to have the Catholic voice heard but, given the current mess of the Church and the lamentable history of the Catholic chaplaincy at Glasgow university, that was always going to be a forlorn hope, I’m sorry to say.
Augustine,
You’re right about this being an example of the Church at the crossroads. It’s such an important post, though, that I think I’ll put a note on the General Election thread to make sure it isn’t missed by readers of that thread in the centuries to come (!) As for your feeling like weeping – join the club: and thank God for the great grace to now see, clearly, the reality of the crisis in the Church.
Unfortunately, I’m not going to be able to get to the Immaculate Heart of Mary on Sunday because I’ll be out of the country. I would most definitely have been there, you can bet money on it, and I’m really disappointed to miss it. However, we’ll advertise it – beginning here – and, hopefully, there will be a group of articulate and informed Catholics to get those candidates hopping on one foot.
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Thanks, Editor.!
I see that there is a post on the parish blog for the IHM:
http://ihom-ihom.blogspot.com/2010/04/hustings-meeting-this-sunday.html
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I had the privilege of chairing the Turnbull Hall hustings event, which had been organised by Fr Keenan in the hope of inviting all Catholics in the constituency to come and hear the views of all candidates. Thanks to Fr Keenan’s assiduous advertising around the deanery, I’m pleased to say the event was well attended.
There were a number of animated questions from the floor, illustrating deep concerns about a wide range of issues, including abortion and euthanasia, the future of Catholic schools, homosexuality and Catholic adoption agencies, defence and the Act of Settlement. These concerns all relate to matters of conscience, matters in which individual politicians’ views, not the views of their party, are of paramount importance. For this reason, it was entirely appropriate that the audience had the opportunity to hear the full range of opinions expressed by the electoral candidates.
Erin Boyle, the Conservative candidate, made the astute point, in relation to the sexualisation of our culture, that increasingly our society treats children like adults and adults like children. Our Catholic laity are not children, and do not require their political candidates’ views to be censored by the Church in advance. Some of the candidates shifted uneasily under this line of questioning, and their ethical shortcomings were exposed for all who had a mind to see. Several candidates remarked to me that it was one of the toughest hustings they had attended, but that they welcomed the opportunity.
As to the “lamentable” history of the Turnbull Hall chaplaincy, I would challenge any critic of Fr Keenan’s to find me any priest in Scotland who has been responsible for overseeing and nurturing more vocations to the priesthood and religious life in the past 10 years.
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I stood up and reminded people that a Catholic who votes for a candidate who is unequivocally in favour of abortion is laetae sententiae excommunicated.
I wonder why no one has pointed out that the tens of millions of American “Catholics” who voted for Obama in 2008 are under the same sentence. Perhaps they were all deluded by the USCCB’s worthless election guide. I’m beginning to think that the real purpose of the Novus Ordodox hierarchy is to put people’s consciences to sleep.
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ContraMundum82,
That the candidates shifted uneasily under tough questioning, seems to be thanks to blogger Augustine. His sorrow was in finding himself alone in speaking out against the immoral policies which are today’s legislation. He sounds like a young person himself, so I couldn’t help but smile when I read his post. I keep meaning to attend some of these Turnbull Hall events because I KNOW what to expect. Anywhere that Catholics gather these days, you’ll have to tread carefully in order to find out what, precisely, they do believe; you cannot take for granted that they will adhere to the Creed and most of them have no basic knowledge of the teaching authority of the Church. Most have never heard a sermon on Hell since Vatican II. Various practical circumstances have prevented me from gracing Turnbull Hall with my presence to date, but I’ll get there one of these days, fully aware that the Catholic Faith will be mocked and savaged by the dissenters whom Fr Keenan permits to poison his students’ minds and souls – a neglect for which he will one day have to answer before God.
And it’s not about the Church “censoring” the candidates in advance. The clergy have a duty to explain and expound Catholic teaching and to make sure that Catholics – especially young people/students who are vulnerable to secular influences – are well formed and knowledgeable about the Faith and about the consequences – Hell – of flouting God’s law so that they know the questions to ask. Given the treatment of Augustine when he spoke out in defence of Catholic morality, this particular audience were anything but knowledgeable and he was the only person asking the right questions.
As for Fr Keenan’s responsibility for overseeing and nurturing more vocations in the past ten years. What???? Scotland doesn’t have a seminary to its name now, and that begs the question, not just where are these vocations but what kind of vocations did Fr Keenan oversee and nurture? When I visited Scotus on a couple of occasions, I couldn’t find a single priest or student who believed in the Mass as the Sacrifice of Calvary. So, don’t gimme “oversaw and nurtured vocations..” Name them.
Candidates attending a hustings at a Catholic chaplaincy should not just “shift uneasily” they should be sweating in their seats, aware that here are a bunch of voters who are NOT going to put their wallets before the murder of unborn children.
We’ve already discussed this nonsense of a free vote, a “conscience” issue, on the General Election thread. These matters of life and death should not BE a free vote. A party that permits abortion and promotes “gay” rights, enshrining this vice in law as a positive good, is a party without any kind of moral compass at all. It’s a get-out clause to allow these immoral policies to continue in legislation without any meaningful challenge to them.
So, welcome to our blog ContraMundum82, but not convinced by anything you’ve said so far. Sorry.
semperfidelis spoke to me on the phone just now (she’s still not back to full health) to tell me about an important Election Resource at the Christian Institute. She particularly highlighted a shocking SNP policy, which they’ve kept very quiet about… visit http://www.catholictruthscotland.com/blog/2010/04/the-general-election-may-2010/#comment-26408 and post any responses on that thread. Thanks.
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Augustine,
You wrote: “I was harangued by another Catholic who vehemently opposed me by saying that most Catholics don’t share my beliefs.”
That is the crisis we are now in. Very few modern Catholics believe the teachings of the Church. This is why more and more informed Catholics are, thank God, wakening up and making the link between all the new things (new Mass, new Catechism, new type of priesthood etc) and the total loss of Catholic faith.
It’s what Catholic Truth has been calling “joining up the dots” for years and it was only when I started to join up the dots that the light dawned. I read somewhere that in Australia they actually talk about the “new Church” and being a “new Church Catholic”. I think that is logical. If you change everything, from the Mass onwards, then you have a new religion. I think that is what you experienced at Turnbull Hall, this new religion.
I think I’m right in saying that Fr John Keenan organises some kind of meeting point in a pub on a regular basis, supposed to be to reach out to the young. It doesn’t sound like much of a success if they don’t even accept basic moral teachings on something as straightforward as abortion.
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Here’s an article sent to me today, which raises a lot of issues.
http://www.catholicworldreport.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=173:why-do-the-media-rage&catid=37:exclusiveOne issue for me is the way the author makes bald statements without anything to back them up, such as the “hermeneutic of continuity” argument (Pope insists all VII teachings must be in line with Tradition) without any comment on the fact that several of the disputed VII “teachings” stand in direct contradiction to what previous popes have taught so there IS no “hermeneutic of continuity”.
Can you spot anything else?
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I wasn’t at the hustings so I can’t comment on it, but I will stand up for Fr. Keenan. He is an exemplary Legionary priest, spiritual director of one of the biggest (if not THE biggest) praesidia in the city, entirely composed of young people who, in my experience, are faithful Catholics in every sense of the word. Before mass every morning he leads the congregation in praying the Rosary. He is filled with compassion and understanding, but in my limited experience, he is uncompromising about the truth of the Catholic faith. Yes, he uses the Novus Ordo rite, but he’s one of the few priests I’ve ever seen to do it without any deviation from the rubric, and I’ve even heard him saying how much he prefers to use the Roman Canon as it contains no ambiguous or misleading words.
He’s a fine priest. He may not be perfect, but he’s doing a damn site more than most. It really makes me sad that this blog can’t recognise any good in someone who’s doing his best to pass on the Catholic faith to the hardest of all groups to reach, and doing it exceptionally well.
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Legion,
I think it’s good that Fr Keenan does the things you have mentioned, especially that he leads the rosary and is conscious of the dangers of the new Mass, so sticks to the Roman Canon, but I have worried for a long time about the pub sessions he runs for young people. I’ve heard about them and I think it is not without its dangers. There’s the whole question of encouraging young people to drink. I know you will say they are going to drink anyway, why not meet them where they are and all that, but all I’m saying is, it has its dangers and I believe there was a special friendship formed in that group which was not healthy at all, and that is all I will say.
Surely the skill is in getting young people to move into an atmosphere which will encourage them to learn about the Church and Christ in such a way as to want to be virtuous?
Before I get told off for going off topic, though, I ought to say that it is surely wrong of any chaplain to leave a bunch of students with a panel of political candidates without making sure they have enough of a handle of the moral issues to not be led astray. It does sound as if Augustine was the only Catholic on the right track and he got attacked by the students, supposedly well influenced by their chaplain.
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Legion,
It is never wise to try to defend the indefensible.
Like Ita, I’m delighted that Father John Keenan uses only the Roman Canon and leads the rosary, but that does not excuse his grave neglect of duty in the matter of the use of the chaplaincy to promote dissent.
It’s what we were talking about previously, somewhere, perhaps on this thread – no time to check – but, the fact is, we have much lower standards than previously. At one time, a priest offering a reverent Mass and leading the rosary would have been unremarkable. Nowadays, it makes them candidates for canonization.
Listen, nobody would like to praise Fr Keenan and every other priest in the land, more than my unworthy self. The fact is, however, that there is just no real leadership among the clergy, not least because there is anything but leadership among the hierarchy – where are they in the case of the sacked Conservative candidate? Why are they not screaming from the rooftops that their vetting procedures virtually debar all Catholics from political office?
However, in this, Legion, you are probably correct – Father Keenan is no worse, and quite possibly a great deal better than many of not most other priests in the archdiocese of Glasgow and beyond. But, frankly, that’s not saying much.
We don’t measure any other professional by the fact that they do their minimal duties. We don’t say “Mr X is a good Maths teacher – he taught me how to add properly.” Or Miss Y is a good English teacher, she taught me how to put a sentence together.” The standard of measurement is not what any given professional has done or can do at a basic level, but what they have done, or do, against what is possible and desirable. Always a higher standard. Teaching someone to write a sentence when they are capable of writing a novel, is no great shakes.
However, when we have a bishop like Bishop Tartaglia trivialising the heroic life and death of Scotland’s only priest martyr (John Ogilvie SJ) and saying that we don’t want that kind of priest today, or words to that effect, (we reported it, with source, in a recent edition of the newsletter) then we can hardly expect the Fr John Keenans of this world to go that extra mile, beyond the bare minimum required of an orthodox priest to retain the description “orthodox” – again, the bare minimum, if the description applies. I mean, does Fr John Keenan obey the Vatican directives on the extremely limited use of Extraordinary Ministers (if properly applied in Scotland, we would not have an EM in sight) or does he “involve” his students in the “liturgy” by using this “ministry”?
It has been my own experience in talking to Catholics all over the place, that expectations are now very low. I even met a teacher on an inservice course in Glasgow a couple of years ago when “Father Flash” hit the headlines in Argyle and the Isles for having an affair (and a child) with his cousin, at which time his womanising ways and worldly lifestyle were exposed to public scrutiny, via the tabloid newspapers. This teacher’s verdict: “Oh yes, it was well known what he was like, but he was still a good priest.” I rest my case.
Of course, if Fr John Keenan sues me, I’ll deny I ever said any of this…
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Ed
I’d be willing to bet that your exchange with Legion suffers from a lack of definition of “going the extra mile.” I’m not sure how Legion would define that, but I know how you define it, and I also know how the likes of +Tartaglia and +Conti would define it: reducing your carbon footprint.
I’m not sure I understand the process at a “husting,” but, speaking of going the extra mile, why didn’t this Fr. Keenan get up and support “Augustine’s” objections?
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Editor,
Your post of 8:13 pm has much to commend it. Expectations have become so low that what would have passed for normal pastoral care thirty or twenty years ago now looks like an exercise in priestly sanctity.
The role of a priest is surely nothing unless it is the promotion of the holiness of each and every one of his flock. Priests should be experts in leading their people up what St. John of the Cross called the Holy Mountain. Alas, few of us seem to have any more than the vaguest conception of our spiritual paternity.
Priests today are often demoralised and sceptical. Let’s face it, times are hard. It is extremely difficult for us to function in the face of a prevailing culture which is one of rampant secularism and which has pushed Christianity of all hues to the margins, but especially so Catholicism. In the popular imagination, ‘Roman Catholic Priest’ is a synonym for ’sexual deviant’. But it is not just factors external to the Church which are the cause of the clerical malaise. Another prominent cause is undoubtedly the poor leadership offered by the bishops and their apparatchiks.
The vessel Catholic Church in Scotland (and beyond) is spiritually becalmed. The longboats of activism lowered into the sea thirty years ago or more to tow the ship towards the breeze are slowing to a halt, their crews tired and dispirited, but still unable to see that the Spirit can be felt only when Christianity is perceived for what it is, i.e. the Truth.
What is needed is a wholesale examination of conscience by priests and bishops as to what they are about in relation to Christ and his Church. It would be very interesting to hear from the bishops and priests of Scotland as to who Jesus Christ is and why he founded a Church. I suspect that their answers in many cases would make grim reading.
Taking a look beyond the confines of our parishes might provide food for thought in the present climate of spiritual stagnation. I write in the days following Gordon Brown’s celebrated gaffe in calling Gillian Duffy a bigot. This very telling episode should bring us to see that we are now governed by people for whom image is everything and truth only a function of self-preservation. As society’s moral inheritance, born of the Judaeo-Christian tradition, is squandered, it gives way to what is little more than a thinly concealed lust for power in which people will say and do anything to prevail over their brothers and sisters. (So much for this particular son of the manse’s moral compass!)
I guess that what I am trying to say is that we have to rethink our relation to Jesus Christ and to His Body, the Church. And the first contradictory myth of which we must rid ourselves is that Christ is just an accessory to our human existence; that somehow everything is hunky dory with Christ, but if Christ is not there or is there only partially (e.g., as in Protestantism) then that’s fine too.
Nothing could be further from the truth. Christ came to save us! But save us from what? To save us from the power of Satan. Full stop. It follows that when Christ’s Kingdom recedes, both on the personal and societal level, Satan advances, and vice-versa.
The writing, fellow bloggers, is on the wall. Either it is back to Truth or it is forward into the abyss.
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caledonianpriest,
Your post gives me some hope: it is not all that often that we have priests who acknowledge the problems in the priesthood and with the hierarchy, so thank you for that. And I take note of what you say about priests being demoralised and sceptical, something of which I’m aware and which is why I try (and probably) fail to be more understanding of the apparent unwillingness of allegedly orthodox clergy to “out” themselves in this crisis. Anyway, your post is very heartening, indeed.
A reader emailed this link this morning – incredible and helps to underline what caledonianpriest says above, about the bishops
http://www.lovingit.co.uk/2010/04/archbishop-vincent-nichols-approves-full-frontal-for-ten-year-olds.htmlThat “crossroads” is fast becoming a very sharp bend, i.e. the de facto schism of the Church in the UK is more and more obviously becoming open revolt.
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caledonianpriest
I would like to apologise for giving you a hard time when you first joined the blog. Your recent posts have been outstanding and I think you’re becoming a huge asset.
God bless, Father.
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caledonianpriest
I’d be interest in your opinion as to whether the devout praying of the traditional Breviary would remedy the “demoralised and sceptical” part of the problem.
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Torkay,
Allow me to respond to your question. It is a fact, I think I’m right in saying, that even priests who are doing their best to be faithful in the current chaos, and who pray their breviary and even the rosary, are demoralised. I know of at least one priest who has been shouted at in the street and who, moreover, isn’t on the best of terms with his bishop, due to the fact that he is not toeing the Modernist line on everything. Being in a state of constant tension of this kind, with priests getting a bad press in wider society such as they’ve never experienced before, is bound to demoralise, even the best of them.
I imagine if, when I was still in post, teachers were making the headlines for all the wrong reasons, and, as a result, the very profession was being called into question and all teachers presumed to be the Devil Incarnate, I’d have felt demoralised as well. The fact that I worked to the highest professional standards myself, wouldn’t alter my awareness that things were very rough in the profession at this time. Dispiriting, demoralising, call it what you will, I wouldn’t be enjoying my porridge in quite the same way…
Not sure if the analogy works, but you’ll get my drift. Otherwise, look for a cut in your cheque/check, when pay day comes round!
Allow me to add that, some years ago, I received an email from a demoralised priest asking me if I really thought Catholic Truth was helping make things better or worse. I replied that if our newsletter reports and editorials are read properly, it should be obvious that we have the highest possible regard for the priesthood and all we are doing is highlighting the gap between what the priesthood is supposed to be, and the reality of the Modernist perversion of priesthood. I pointed out that, read properly, it should be clear that Catholic Truth has a higher opinion of the priesthood than do many, if not most, priests.
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Caledonianpriest
I have followed your comments on the article Church at the Crossroads unfortunately I have not been able to access this part site for several days. But found it reassuring that one of our Sheppard acknowledges the need for change.
Your quote. When Christianity is perceived for what it is The Truth;
And I would like to add. Living water flows from a truthful heart come let’s make a fresh start displaying old and new let’s see what the third watch can do.
To-day I posted the post below what I am asking of the Highland Priest I ask of you.Site ref Our Lady of Akita.
Highland Priest
PUBLIC AND PRIVATE REVERLATION.
Is God’s Word Inviolate?Re: Divine Mercy. Sister Faustina.
Blasphemy In God’s House
I have read some of your comments and I am impressed by the clarity of most of your answers do not be flattered by this as I am uneducated and have only made a few post’s on different sites all in the last nine months all relating to the same article. Divine Mercy
I am posting this article again on this site. On thread 4 In a different format to the one I posted on this site September 09 Thread 3 (and I hope with more clarity) as to-date I have not received a satisfactory answer on this site or any other and I am hoping that you can shed some light on this matter for me.
I would be grateful if you would read it and give me your opinion with the same clarity of teaching that you have given to others on this site.To all searching for truth on this site.
May the light of the New Born Jesus dwell in our hearts and it’s radiance embellish itself within us and the gift of his joy be ours
The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed; nor will they say, Lo here it is, or There! for behold the kingdom of God is in the midst of you
God’s Word is manifest through his lovers.
God himself still speaks to mankind through his lovers.kevin
In Christ.
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