In email correspondence with Torkay on the subject of music in modern parishes, it became clear that this was a thread topic waiting to happen. We’ve all been there, suffered them: the popular tunes with the heretical sentiments. My all time NON favourite is the post-Communion “He comes to me, in sharing bread and wine” with the Magnificat swung to the tune “Will ye go, lassie, go” a close second. Torkay emailed the list below, to prompt discussion because it is surely important that voices raised in song during Mass and other liturgies, should not be raised in heresy.
Torkay’s list…
1. Taste and See, James E. Moore, Jr. (a Communion anthem)
“Taste and see, taste and see, the goodness of the Lord.”
2. We Are One in Christ, James Chepponis
REFRAIN: “As the bread of life is broken, the cup of love outpoured…”
V.3: “In the bread of life here given, we become what we receive. In the cup of love here offered, affirm what we believe.”
3. Ubi Caritas, Bob Hurd
V.2: “In true communion let us gather, let us rejoice in him (sic)…”
V.3: “May we who gather at this table to share the bread of life, become a sacrament of love, your healing touch, O Christ.”
4. Mass of Creation, Marty Haugen (this “Mass” is practically pagan)
Subtitle: “Song of Fire and Water”
Rite of Sprinkling
V.1: “We are fire and water, we are symbol and sign of grace, we are the mystery.”
V.2: “In the water we seek him, in the wellspring of all that lives, all who are thirsty.”
V.3: “In the fire we seek him, in the hungers and pains we bear, hope for the kingdom.”
Gospel Acclamation
V.4: “Come, O Spirit, kindle fire in the hearts of all your people.”
Memorial Acclamation
“Let us proclaim the mystery of faith: Christ has died, Christ has risen, Christ will come again.” (Torkay’s comment: oops! Wrong mystery!)
Jesus, Lamb of God (i.e. Agnus Dei)
V.2: “Jesus, Bread of Life, you take away the sins of the world.”
What about your list? Are there hymns that you can’t sing in church? Have you spoken to your priest or organist? Given the crisis in the Church, should priests make sure that the hymns in use are (excuse the pun!) sound?
It seems to me that modern hymns are not worshipping God at all. They are either making the congregation role play God (“I the Lord, of sea and sky, I have heard my people cry”) or they’re singing about themselves (“Here I am, Lord, is it I, Lord?”)
What do you think? Is there anyone out there who actually LIKES the modern songs? Or, like me, do you hanker after the beautiful hymns of praise and adoration, seldom heard in modern parishes any more?
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All of the above music, by the way, is being used this Saturday at the Deacon’s Ordination in our Archdiocese. What better way to usher in more pseudo-Protestants than to reinforce non-Catholic theology?
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Great thread, Editor. Hymns are so important and a lot of people have strong emotional ties to hymns.
Regarding modern hymns. I have been an organist for almost 14 years, although I retired from regular playing just over a year ago. I’ve played in modern parishes and the Church of Scotland. Some of the Church of Scotland hymns are infinitely better than modern “Catholic hymns”. I must say, however, that I do like some modern hymns. I’ll maybe give my top five and bottom five (so I can be mocked), followed by my favourite traditional hymns.
Top Five Modern Hymns
1. Lord You Have Come To The Seashore
2. Seek Ye First
3. I am the Bread of Life
4. Walk With Me
5. I Will Be With YouBottom Five Modern Hymns
1. Fill My House (eat my bread and drink my wine)
2. Give Me Joy In My Heart
3. Take Our Bread (brilliant tune, right enough)
4. Bind Us Together
5. Abba FatherTop Five Traditional Hymns
1. Hail Queen of Heaven
2. Come To The Throne of Grace (although I think this is quite “new”)
3. Dear Saint Joseph
4. Sweet Sacrament Divine
5. Faith of Our Fathersand many, many more.
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Catholic hymns are good, non-Catholic not good. The lyrics in many of these modern songs are questionable. There are good Catholic hymns such as the ones Petrus named above. I would also add Holy God We Praise Thy Name (although it does seem to be sung too much).
Then there are the actual Protestant hymns that I remember being heard when I used to go to the NOM:
Amazing Grace
How Great Thou Art
O God Beyond All Praising
A Mighty Fortress is Our GodOne wonders what Pope St. Pius X would say to that!
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It is the Magnificat put to “Will ye go lassie go” that really does annoy me. It is such a trivialisation of that beautiful prayer of Our Lady.
So, that’s first “no no” on my list. Then include all the ones on Petrus’s “bottom list” list plus the ones on his top list, because they are as stated in the thread article, either role-playing at being God or singing about ourselves. I hadn’t thought of it like that before reading the article but it’s true, whereas prayers (and hymns are prayers set to music, aren’t they?) should be speaking to God, telling him our praise, love, adoration etc. I supposed “Walk With Me” is OK, but I really just prefer the old hymns, period.
I really can’t stand “Amazing Grace” on CatholicThurifer’s list and never heard A Mighty Fortress or O God Beyond All Praising but How Great Thou Art is OK is it not? I mean, as long as it doesn’t contain error, does it matter that it was a Protestant hymn?
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The mention of the words ‘post communion hymn’ fill me with dread…
All a very good sentiment but my experience is of hymns are that they are very poorly played (primarily for the glory of the organist) and very poorly sung (primarily for the glory of the choir/singer). I prefer silence to pray privately rather than be distracted by 18 verses of ghastliness!
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Agreed, Michaelangelo. I, too, prefer silence to many of these theologically-illiterate “hymns”.
I have just received the latest Inside the Vatican Newsflash and this seems to be the appropriate thread on which to post it. I’ve visited the Washington Shrine and it is absolutely spectacular. The thought of the old rite Mass being offered there, fills me with undiluted joy. Not least because the thought of some of these silly songs posing as hymns NOT resounding through those hallowed walls for once, is just too good to be true! Anyway, here’s the Newsflash…
The Old Mass Returns
For the first time in 40 years, the old Latin Mass will be celebrated in the largest Catholic Church in America, the Basilica of the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception. Time: 1 p.m. tomorrow, Saturday, April 24, commemorating the 5th anniversary of the installation in 2005 of Pope Benedict XVI as Pope
By Robert Moynihan, reporting from America
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The old Mass
In a way, I find the use of the term “extraordinary form” to describe the “old Mass” a bit unfortunate.
Because, after all, it was so ordinary, that old Mass — ordinary in the sense that it was celebrated every day, every weekday and every Sunday, for centuries, in the Roman Catholic Church.
Ordinary in that it was the Mass of Newman, and Chesterton, and Pius X, and John XXIII, and of all those millions who came before us.
Why should the celebration of that old Mass, the Tridentine Mass, be considered something unusual, something astonishing, something arousing wonder, as if it were “extraordinary.”
Why not just call it “ordinary?
For really, it is just the old, ordinary Mass, which our fathers and mothers attended — the place and time where they asked forgiveness for their sins, and praised God for His holiness, and encountered Christ in the consecration, and entered into a type of real union with Christ through the mystery of communion.
But today we are astonished that the extraordinary rite of the Mass is celebrated, because it has become so rare.
For 40 years, it has been virtually banned, and only in 2007, with his much-discussed — and much-opposed — motu proprio Summorum Pontificum, did Benedict XVI make clear to the Church that this Mass was truly, in some profound way, ordinary, even if he called it “extraordinary.”
Ordinary, because legitimate.
Not banned, not despised, not condemned. Accepted, embraced, even honored.
Hence… extraordinary.
And, in fact, he was right: it is extraordinary.
It is extraordinary because it is rooted so deep in our tradition that it goes back even beyond Jesus, to speak to us in the moving, unforgettable poetry of King David of Israel…
Extraordinary because it goes back even beyond Scripture, beyond the New Testament itself, as its prayers derive ultimately from the prayers of the first Christians, who prayed them even before the New Testament canon was set with certainty…
Extraordinary because it was the school of sanctity for countless saints, century after century, in every nation of the world…
“Introibo ad altare Dei” – “I will go up to the altar of God” (the first words of the Mass)
Tomorrow, this Mass, ordinary and extraordinary, will return to the largest basilica in America, the Basilica of the Shrine of the Immaculate Conception in Washington, D.C.
It would be a shame if the Basilica were not filled for this Eucharist. If you are in the area of Washington, and can take the time out of your day to attend the Mass, it might be a moment when past and future intersect, when old prayers are heard once again as if new.
It might be, in fact, something extraordinary. END.
Alleluia! Alleluia!
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A priest of my acquaintance once told me he refuses to sing How Great Thou Art because the line about God sending His Son to die is a heresy. I don’t honestly know – can someone confirm or refute that one for me?
I happen to like the Wild Mountain Thyme Magnificat. I don’t think it trivialises anything to set beautiful words to a beautiful tune.
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Some of my favourites are hymns we would not have heard in a Catholic Church 30 or 40 years ago. They include:
The Lord is My Shepherd (Crimond)
The Day Thou Gavest Lord is Ended
Thine be the Glory
Abide With Me
Dear Lord and Father of MankindI’ll add others as they occur to me.
One Protestant import we should have let them keep IMHO, is Now the Green Blade Rises, especially the new, but not improved, version I found on the hymn sheet for the Easter Vigil I attended this year. Thankfully we didn’t actually sing it.
Favourite traditional Catholic hymns include – in no particular order:
Sweet Saviour Bless Us Ere We Go
O Bread of Heaven
Salve Regina
I Rise From Dreams of Time
O Take Me to Thy Sacred Heart (and almost any other hymn to the Sacred Heart)
Immaculate Mary
Guardian AngelThere are still some modern hymns I like though I admit to having gone off some that I loved twenty or thirty years ago – they just haven’t stood the test of time. Like some others here, I too remain silent during one or two that refer incorrectly to bread and wine.
Modern hymns I like:
Could You Not Wait one Hour With Me?
Spirit of God, Come Dwell within Me
Surrexit Christus – I want that one at my funeralAnd some others that I can’t think of right now.
Eileenanne
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Someone here appears to be unaware than in the Sixth Chapter of St. John Jesus says that he is the Bread of Life. Is St. John also to be considered a heretic?
Editor, Petrus, Torkay,
Get a life!
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caledonianpriest,
I think there is a difference between Jesus describing himself as “the Bread of Life” and us singing his exact words, and the other hymns such as “he comes to me in sharing bread and wine” after centuries of Church teaching on transubstantiation. We always did sing things like “Panis Angelicus” which means Bread of Angels, but that makes it clear that we’re not talking about ordinary bread. These modern hymns just speak of bread and that is dangerous, especially in schools where the catechesis is very poor.
I know that a lot more people these days speak about receiving the bread (and wine, by the way) than used to be the case. People always spoke of receiving Holy Communion, not “the bread”. I think these hymns encourage loss of belief in the Real Presence, but I’d be interested to know if you think there is any difference between a hymn of adoration to The Bread of Life and “he comes to me in sharing bread and wine” and other hymns that speak of “bread” and “wine” like ordinary bread and wine.
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NOTICE
I’ve just posted some important information about HLI Ireland and their Devotion to the Holy Face campaign on the One-Off Thread.
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What a charming post from caledonianpriest. So much for bowing out, eh Father?
You know, it really makes me wonder when priests are so aggressive. Do they really have that mark on the soul that priestly ordination gives? I really do sometimes wonder.
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Petrus,
I wonder about that too. They are so “tolerant” of everyone except Catholics who don’t go along with the crowd.
In all seriousness, it makes me wonder what priests believe about the consecration / transubstantiation, when they defend singing about receiving bread and wine after Communion. I really do wonder. It will be interesting to see if caledonianpriest puts out minds at rest on this one.
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Here’s one we (i.e. everyone except moi) used to sing in a parish where I lived in England – this “entrance hymn” puts “go lassie go” into perspective a bit..
The Birthday Party
If you go down to the stable there,
You’re in for a big surprise.
O yes– the dirtiest place in town!
You’ll never believe your eyes!
They say that God Himself has come–
O what a great disguise!
And He’s thrown Himself a birthday party!A peasant girl and a carpenter
Are heading His entourage.
A goat, a lamb, and a mangy cow
Are singing the grand hurrahs.
Our God is just a baby
With His donkey standing guard,
And He’s sleeping through His birthday party!Some shepherds said the angels sang
As skies were all on fire.
The shepherds joined the party,
But they didn’t bring the choir!They couldn’t find a present,
But the smell they brought was great!
Three kings have been invited,
But I guess they’re running late!If you go down to the stable there,
You’ll never believe your eyes!
If you’re expecting to meet your God,
You’re in for a big surprise!
You think He’s high and mighty,
That He lives up in the skies?
Well, you’re welcome to His birthday party!For the music, click on the link provided here…
http://www.lnwhymns.com/products/hymns/192.htm#That, straight from my novus ordo days – long gone, never to return!
By the way, when the parish priest who sang the above with gusto, visited me in my humble dwelling when he was an unsuspecting newcomer to the area, he told me that certain orthodox writings “kept him awake at night” (I asked him if he read The Tablet and he nodded enthusiastically. I told him that if anything should keep him awake at night it was that rag – the shock horror on his face was a picture to behold).
He “passed” on my offer to run an adult religion course because I’d said (reassuringly, I thought) that it would be “based on the Catechism of the Catholic Church”, which I should have realised also, no doubt, keeps him awake at night.
So, unlike Petrus and rebel, I’m not in any doubt about the beliefs, or, more precisely, the lack thereof, of many, if not most, modern priests. Sadly.
Anyway, any takers for “The Birthday Party”?
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Editor
Sounds like your old priest would rather sing this version:
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How about this for some beautiful lyrics?
editor: Lengthy post deleted due to bad languageNow THAT is what I call poetry.
editor: well, it’s what we call “disgusting” and I advise you not to waste your time posting anything like it here again. Your posts will all go to moderation and, if they resemble this one, will be deleted – in future without any publicity. So, find yourself a site where people enjoy foul language if you are unable to communicate in a mature manner in plain English – bad language is not permitted here, where a basic level of intellectual ability and some communication skills are required in order to communicate effectively on difficult issues of religious faith and morals. Not of interest to you, it seems, judging by the vulgar content of your two posts which I read wearing sun glasses. The other post has been deleted in its entirety. Thanks for popping in – goodbye.
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Rebel et al.,
Take a look at this:
120. Let the workers be invited to partake of this sustaining and never failing nourishment that it may renew their strength and obtain for their labors an everlasting recompense in heaven; in a word, invite all men of whatever class and compel them to come in;[109] since this is the bread of life which all require. The Church of Jesus Christ needs no other bread than this to satisfy fully our souls’ wants and desires, and to unite us in the most intimate union with Jesus Christ, to make us “one body,”[110] to get us to live together as brothers who, breaking the same bread, sit down to the same heavenly table, to partake of the elixir of immortality.
It is a quotation from nothing other than the Encyclical Letter ‘Mediator Dei’ of His Holiness Pope Pius XII.
It is a very sad day when it is considered heretical, or proximate to heresy, to apply to the Eucharist one of the titles which Jesus applies to himself and which most clearly explains the doctrine of the Real Presence.
O and Petrus,
I would remind you in particular that it is Madame Editor who is always telling people that the ‘tone’ of the Catholic Truth Newsletter/Blog is purely secondary and that those who criticize her for her strident tone should concentrate on the content of what she is saying. I would ask the same of you.
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Even the first page of the following article might serve to reinforce exactly why believing Catholics can refer to the Blessed Sacrament as the ‘Bread of Life’ in good conscience:
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Pray excuse the rather intermittent nature of my interventions, but I have had rather a busy Sunday morning.
Petrus,
Your post of yesterday evening (9:04 pm) demonstrates not only your mean mindedness but the rather shocking theological ignorance which all too often characterizes the contributions to this blog. If a display of anger on the part of a priest is sufficient reason to doubt that he has received the sacramental character imparted by the sacrament of Ordination, then, from a logical point of view, one would also have to doubt that any Christian who displays anger has received the sacramental character imparted by the sacraments of Baptism and Confirmation.
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caledonianpriest,
You are being disingenuous, methinks. But, before I respond in more detail to your posts, would you help me out a little because it may be that we are at cross purposes – in which case I would owe you an apology for misunderstanding what you mean.
Let’s stick with this “bread of life” for the purposes of this current argument.
Do you think it is a good thing, in these days of manifest loss of belief in the Real Presence, to choose, for the post-Communion hymn, the hymn which includes the words: “He comes to me, in sharing bread and wine”?
IS it “bread and wine” that we have just received? That is my question, because I have no objection to e.g. singing Panis Angelicus or “I am the Bread of Life” (except that, since I dislike the fashion of role-playing God, I would prefer a hymn that focused on singing THAT Christ is the Bread of Life, if you can see the distinction).
So, would you confirm that it is – in your view – acceptable to sing “he comes to me in sharing bread and wine” AFTER we receive Communion.
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What I am saying is that it is pefectly legitimate, and in accordance with ancient tradition, to describe the Communion as the Bread of Life, which is what Jesus says He is in that O so very Eucharistic Sixth Chapter of St. John’s Gospel. It is absurd to say, as has been implied here, that this is some kind of latent heresy. What it is, in point of fact, is the use of Sacred Scripture to demonsrate doctrine. (Please read again the penultimate parapgraph of the first page of the Dowdall article: http://www.jstor.org/pss/27657689
I cannot confirm that it is in my view ‘acceptable to sing “He comes to me in sharing bread and wine” because I have never made an affirmation of that kind. Guilty until proven innocent may be the underlying principle in your dealings with peope, but it certainly is not a principle I can subscribe to. I can only quote to you what I said above: ‘It is a very sad day when it is considered heretical, or proximate to heresy, to apply to the Eucharist one of the titles which Jesus applies to himself and which most clearly explains the doctrine of the Real Presence.’ Most people in good faith will clearly undestand from this that I hold the Church’s faith in the Eucharist.
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caledonianpriest,
I have not said that you said it was acceptable to sing “he comes to me in sharing bread and wine” after Communion.
Forgive me if I am misunderstanding you, but you appear to be making the leap from my criticism of that hymn and others like it, to the false conclusion that I am refusing to recognise the title Bread of Life in John 6. That is not and never has been, what I have said, nor anyone else on this blog. I have specifically said that we have always sung of “the Bread of Life” or “Bread of Angels” (Panis Angelicus) and that it is acceptable (but not to my personal taste because I prefer to adore rather than role play God) to sing the words of Scripture put to music “I am the Bread of Life…” So my position is clear and you should not object to it.
YOU don’t need to have made an affirmation of approval of “sharing bread and wine” in order to hold an opinion on it. I’ve never advocated Muslim women wearing the face veil but I sure do hold an opinion on it.
So, allow me to try again. DO you think that the popular hymn which contains the words “he comes to me in sharing bread and wine” is an appropriate hymn to sing AFTER Holy Communion?
A simple “Yes” (it is appropriate) or “No” (it is inappropriate) will do.
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Caledonianpriest,
I don’t think is objecting to referring to the Blessed Sacrament as “bread” per se, so long as there is an understanding that the Holy Eucharist is not actually bread, and that this word is being used figuratively. As Rebel Points out in his post from 8:32pm yesterday. the problem arises when people don’t believe that the Blessed Sacrament is anything other that bread. That’s what the majority of people appear to believe these days, at least, judging from how how they behave towards the Blessed Sacrament, and hymns like the ones metioned merely reinforce this heresy.
Back on subject, some of the modern hymns make me cringe, even some of the ones I used to like during my charismatic days! However, nothing will ever come close to J.S. Bach’s “Jesu bleibet meine Freude,” none the worse for being popular and having been written by a Lutheran!
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caledonianpriest
I really wish it was only your anger that made me question the validity of some of the new Sacraments.
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Caledonianpriest,
If you read my list above you will see that I included O Bread of Heaven as one of my favourites, so of course I don’t disagree about Jesus being the “Bread of Life” etc. But you surely see that it is wrong to sing “He comes to me in sharing bread and wine”? I also dislike the Eucharistic Acclamation, “When we eat this bread…”
On this Good Shepherd Sunday, may I thank you for being and remaining a priest in these difficult times. I detected no anger from you in your original post or since. God Bless.
Eileenanne
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Petrus,
I understand you are a young man with a wife and children. May I, seriously, and out of genuine concern for your well being and theirs, suggest you keep a close watch on your blood pressure? You seem to be so easily riled, I wonder if participating on this blog is good for you. Don’t let it adversely affect your health.
Eileenanne
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Eileenanne,
Don’t worry, very calm here. We can’t, unfortunately, say the same for caledonianpriest.
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Petrus,
The attacks on caledonianpriest are greatly unjustified. No wonder he is getting irritated with you, I’m sure you would anger even Saint Francis with your petulance. A priest deserve respect for his office, his ordination which enables him to stand in persona Christi, even if you think he’s some kind of modernist numpty (which I dont believe he is). -
Stuart
It certainly wasn’t my intention to “attack” caledonianpriest. If I have given the wrong impression than that is something I regret. I certainly don’t think caledonianpriest is a “modernist numpty” – I hope I haven’t given that impression either.
I really looked forward to this thread because I love singing and I’m very attached to hymns. I believe in my original post on this thread, I stuck to the subject matter and gave my opinion, detailing my likes and dislikes. I was then told to “get a life”. Perhaps I criticised one of caedonianpriest’s favourite hymns and this has upset him, I don’t know because he didn’t specify what I did to upset him. If Father could specify what I did to make him respond in such way, I can either apologise for being difficult or defend my position.
Anyway, I think there has been a genuine misunderstanding between the editor and caledonianpriest regarding the use of “Bread of Life”. The problem with “My God Loves Me” is that it doesn’t even refer to “The Bread of Life”, merely “bread and wine”, a bit like “Yours as we eat the bread our hearts can’t forget”. I agree with eileenanne that this dilutes the understanding of the Real Presence.
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Thanks to Eileenanne and Stuart, evidently very sensible people.
But far more important matters are before us: namely: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/vaticancityandholysee/7632259/Pope-could-cancel-UK-visit-over-offensive-Foreign-Office-memo.html
Worthy of a thread, Madame Editor?
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With all respect to his office, I think Caledonianpriest had started the uncharitability on this thread in his post from yesterday at 8:09pm, telling certain bloggers to “get a life.” Quite disappointing conduct from a priest.
Stuart and Eileenanne,
I do think you are being unfair towards Petrus even if he is a Tory, as I don’t think he was being disrespectful and I strongly doubt he would ever call a priest a “numpty.” -
I think, caledonianpriest, that it would have been nice if you’d answered my question about the hymn “sharing bread and wine” but my guess is that you may have used this “hymn” in the past (since its commonplace in parishes across the UK) and rather than admit that, on reflection, it is NOT a good choice, you are avoiding the question. But let’s leave it there.
Petrus, thanks for your 5.30.pm post – spot on.
Grignion, you, too, are spot on but let’s leave the acrimony there.
And, as a gesture of good faith, I’ll go right now and post a thread using the link above, caledonianpriest.
Catholic Truth, at your service!
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Madame Editor,
You are most gracious. I have never (knowingly) used the hymn you mention, and would never approve it. Interestingly enough, no-one seems to have picked up on the fact that some of the new Eucharistic Prayers are highly deficient in this regard. For this very reason, I try to stick to the Roman Canon or Eucharistic Prayer I.
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caldonianpriest,
I am very happy to read your 7 pm post – delighted about your position on “that hymn”; “most gracious” is not a description I’m used to hearing, so, thanks for your kindness.
We do, of course, acknowledge the deficiency of the Eucharistic Prayers, and you are right, we should really have discussed those in more detail because, although we’ve had general “Mass” threads, we’ve never focused on the Eucharistic Prayers as such. I suppose the underlying reason for that is that we’ve – probably most of us – returned to the TLM, so “out of hearing, out of mind” so to speak.
Anyway, I’ve just posted the new thread on the possible cancellation of the Pope’s visit, so I look forward to reading the no doubt mixed bag of views on that subject.
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Torkay,
that video of the Happy Birthday (Beatles) was really funny.
Editor,
I can’t believe that any priest would pick that Happy Birthday song for an entrance hymn. That really does take the biscuit.
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Dear All,
The late Fr James Quinn SJ of Edinburgh, a renowned hymn writer, often described his work as “a catechism in song”. He said that there was no need for a hymn to rhyme; rather it was more important that one could learn something from it.
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Paul,
That is very interesting indeed about Father Quinn SJ – here’s his obiturary
http://www.indcatholicnews.com/news.php?viewStory=15970I am surprised at how involved he was in ecumenical activities because he was very supportive of our newsletter at the outset and the two don’t usually go together! I must emphasise, however, that Father Quinn was never a source of any information published in the newsletter. His connection was really as a personal friend of Charles, our Founder and first Treasurer.
The founder of Catholic Truth (Charles J Smith, R.I.P) had worked with Father Quinn on the cause for the canonisation of John Ogilvie, SJ and when we sent out the first one-page effort, with the instruction for priests who wanted to receive it, to write to tell us, Father Quinn contacted Charles to say “bad idea – they’ll read it if you send it, but they won’t ask for it”.
So, I’m surprised about his ecumenism but pleased that he emphasised the “teaching” nature of hymns.
May he rest in peace.
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Here’s a letter which is published in the latest issue of Christian Order.
“I have been separated from the whole Novus Ordo scene for so long that it now seems a bit like another planet. The last Novus Ordo Mass I went to was a funeral at which we were expected to sing “Wish me luck as you wave me goodbye” as the recessional hymn. It was a moment of brushing the dust from my sandals – big time. Graham (London).
Can you believe that?
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Correct, Graham – the Novus Ordo is another religion.
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I was interested in seeing which hymns people like and dislike, but yet again the discussion has wandered into denigration of the Ordinary form of the Mass. The Church allows TWO forms of Mass and we are each free to choose the one we prefer. Can’t we just leave it at that? I would have been as horrified as “Graham” at being expected to sing such an inappropriate song at a Catholic funeral, but that kind of flouting of the rules on what is acceptable church music, does not say ANYTHING about the superiority of one form of the Mass. It says quite a lot about Catholics being pretty much like everyone else nowadays, in matters where they used to be different from others. The unfortunate practice of having unsuitable songs at weddings and funerals derives, IMHO, from people seeing too many funerals on Eastenders et al, and thinking they are “nice”. Sadly some priests don’t have whatever it takes to say no to such requests.
Now who’d like to list their favourite hymns?
Eileenanne
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Eileenanne
One of my favorites, though not a hymn, is Palestrina’s Regina Coeli. In fact, I’ve just about got it memorized, since we’ve sung it several times over the past couple of months in the choir.
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Eileenanne,
You’ve hit on something very important in your penultimate sentence. Leaving aside your comments about the Mass (because there is a connection between the drip, drip, Protestantising effect of the Novus Ordo and all that goes with it, music/hymns included) the fact that priests have so little grasp of what is liturgically appropriate, let alone knowledge of the essence of rubric, is an offshoot of the new Mass. They’ve – most of them – never known anything except the new Mass with its ad-lib/popular music culture so have nothing to measure such silly requests against, since they, themselves, have not been exposed to authentic Catholic faith and culture. That’s an important issue in this matter of music at Mass, so thanks for highlighting it.
I have many favourites hymns; Panis Angelicus, O Bread of Heaven, the May hymns to Our Lady and other hymns to Our Lady including O Come to the Throne of Grace (the Fatima hymn), the hymns to the Sacred Heart and Dear St Joseph. These are among my favourite hymns. More later…
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I agree with the editor and eileenanne. It goes back to what I said on another thread about how standards are lowered the longer you are part of modern parishes. Eileenanne made a very good point about the power of the media and “nice” funerals on TV. Spot on. The points, I think, are linked.
I think a big problem with the New Mass is the dumbing down of the sacrifical nature of the Mass; the loss of the sacred. Once you lose this, you’re left with a gap that is inevitably filled with the profane. This, of course, has various knock-on effects, one which is the choise of hymns. Sentimentality takes the place of the sacred.
More hymns I love:
Salve Regina, I Rise From Dreams of Time, Guardian Angel, Full In The Panting Heart of Rome, Sweet Heart of Jesus, To Jesus Heart All Burning, When Christ Our Lord To Andrew Cried, They Are Waiting For Our Petitions
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I also agree that there has been a dumbing down since the New Mass.
My favourite hymsn are also in Petrus’s list, such as Guardian Angel (I just LOVE that but never hear it in church) and Sweet Heart of Jesus/To Jesus Heart all Burning and They are waiting for our petitions.
If I remember more, will add them later on. I’m sure there are loads but since we don’t hear them these days, I need to think to bring them to mind. Now I’m going about singing lots of the old hymns since this thread began! Thank you everyone, especially Petrus, for reminding me of the lovely hymns we used to sing all the time.
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Rebel said:
“I also agree that there has been a dumbing down since the New Mass. ”You are probably right Rebel, but I don’t think you could prove a causal link between the two. Many things have been dumbed down in the last forty years, and you can’t blame the ordinary form of the Mass for all of them. I suspect the dumbing down we see in hymns and other aspects of our Catholic life and liturgy are just as likely to be caused by changes to our educational system (I’m not talking about RE here,) the media and other influences.
Example: When Blue Peter started in 1958, the average length of a feature was 11-12 minutes. Now it is something like 3- 4 minutes, because that is what they reckon children can cope with before they lose interest. Dumbing down? Possibly. The fault of the changes to the Mass? Unlikely.See, there I’ve gone and done what I asked others not to do. I’ve let myself get sidetracked away from the matter under discussion.
Eileenanne
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Petrus,
I love all those hymns you posted above and above that, as well! “Full in the Panting Heart of Rome” was a hymn we sang regularly in my youth (what a memory!) I think it would choke the new modernist parish priest in my beloved “old” parish, so I doubt if they ever sing it now.
Eileenanne,
It is very clear indeed that there is a causal link between the New Mass and the “dumbing down” of the Faith (or, more precisely, the widespread, almost total, apostasy from the Faith.)
You are correct in that other factors come into play as well. One of the reasons I choose to attend the SSPX Masses is because we get the “whole package”. We hear solid sermons which embrace everything from the teaching of the Gospel of the day to related doctrine, sound moral preaching, hymns that are theologically literate, regular Benediction, Rosary, etc. Catholic culture in its entirety. Not to mention a cup of tea afterwards!
The words and actions of the Pope, however, both before and after his election as Pontiff, make very clear, that he believes there is a definite cause and effect link between the new Mass and the widespread apostasy raging across the world today. No question about it.
But if you do have any questions about it, I’ll deal with them tomorrow! Right now, pubbing and clubbing time again!
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I was sorry not to have been able to see this discussion until the blog was closed for Editor’s absence at the Fatima Conference. So though it might be irritating of me, I’d just like to revisit what was said about the use of the words bread and wine in hymns, particularly the modern ones, and emphasise again a point that some bloggers made. Caledonian Priest said that this was the use of sacred scripture to demonstrate doctrine, and there can be no argument about that. However, the problem with ‘hearers of the word’ is that they interpret what they hear in the light of previous knowledge. Back in the olden days of my youth, every child in a Catholic school, being prepared for First Communion, knew that bread and wine in this context meant the Body and Blood of Christ, and our hymns reinforced this. One of my very great favourites, that I haven’t heard for years illustrates this beautifully:
O Bread of heaven, beneath this veil
Thou dost my very God conceal:
My Jesus, dearest treasure hail;
O love thee, and adoring kneel.
Each loving soul by thee is fed
With Thy own self in form of bread.A perfect use of the word ‘bread’ in a full statement of Catholic belief in the Real Presence.
The problem now lies with a Catholic generation that has, with the exception of a few fortunate individuals and groups, not been educated in this faith. As a Catholic teacher in a convent school run by SNDs I had to opt out completely when, immediately after Vat.II, I was required by the headmistress to teach a faith that was not my faith. Recently I heard that a local Catholic teacher, asked about preparing the children for First Communion, was horrified at the mention of ‘transubstantiation’, saying that children of that age could not understand this doctrine in any terms. As I remember it, however, children are only ready to receive Holy Communion when, and not before, they are able to discern the Body and Blood of Christ from ordinary bread and wine. I very much fear that many of those in the congregations nowadays going up en masse to receive Communion, cannot so discern, and their behaviour amply demonstrates this.
I know that many bloggers are irritated by others returning over and over again to the ‘New Mass’ as one of the reasons for the loss of faith in the Real Presence, and of the consequent danger of the ‘bread and wine’ hymns which are often no longer understood as they should be understood from St. John’s Gospel. The correct understanding of scripture requires a correct catechesis, otherwise its mere reading and ignorant repetition can indeed lead to or reinforce heresy.
Last Sunday I was away from home and had no access to a traditional Mass. I went to the local church after a fairly long absence from the NO, and I was (again) horrified. The church was, surprisingly, almost full, and the noise that assaulted my ears when I went in was unbelievable. I was accustomed to a lot of talking in most NO congregations in my experience, but some people here were literally shouting across benches. I did not see anyone genuflect, and the distribution of Communion under both kinds by lay persons was perfunctory in the extreme. A priest once told me not to judge the faith, in the Real Presence, of others, but really…..
So I think that although the lack of Catholic teaching in our schools is the first cause of the massive loss of faith among Catholics, the New Mass, with its inadequate expression of Catholic theology, serves only to worsen the situation among the laity at large, as do the ‘bread and wine’ hymns.
I also love ‘Jesus, Thou art coming’, ‘Sweet Saviour, bless us ‘ere we go’, ‘Abide with me’ and the lovely Protestant one, ‘When I survey the wondrous cross’.
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