Who decides who are the REAL Catholics?

January 31, 2012 in bishops, Dissent, freemasons, pope benedict, Real Presence, tradition, Traditional Mass by editor | 56 comments

I’ve been asked to post a new thread to discuss the phenomen of the divisions among the laity and clergy in the Church today.

Broadly, this division is split along liturgical lines; those who have accepted the novus ordo – the ”new order” of Mass and those who refuse to accept it, and attend, instead, the Traditional Latin Mass (TLM)

There is a danger that those now termed “traditional” Catholics (at one time there was no other kind of Catholic on offer!) and those termed “liberal”/”conservative”/”orthodox” – whatever – are so sharply divided that they regard each other as being members of two different churches.

Are “traditional” lay Catholics superior to the novus ordo-attending laity? Are “traditional” priests more Catholic than the rest of the clergy?

What are the issues? How do we play our part as individuals in resolving them? Over to you!

56 comments

Petrus on January 31, 2012 at 11:01 pm

This is a difficult one. I don’t think we can make sweeping statements and generalisations. There are Catholics who attend Novus Ordo parishes because they just don’t know any better. They are being led astray by false prophets.

When I attended my local parish I thought I was “traditional”. For some time I also thought my parish was quite conservative. We prayed the Rosary before Mass, had regular exposition of the Blessed Sacrament, frequent Confessions and we sang Latin hymns. Of course, in reality, the parish was (and is) extremely modern. My point is this: I was ignorant. I knew very little about the SSPX or the current crisis in the Church.

I know there are Catholics who attend regular parishes and lead good Catholic lives. I cannot believe I am a member of a different Church from them.

Of course, there are many enemies of the Church, clerical and lay, who are intent on destroying the true Church and forming their own, along Protestant lines. These people are dangerous and lead many souls astray.

Torkay mentioned on another thread that there is a “Protestant spirit”. This is true. I think things are getting much, much worse and it’s surely becoming more difficult to maintain Catholicity in modern parishes.
Tomas de Torkay on February 1, 2012 at 12:02 am

To answer your headline question, Editor, only God decides who are the real Catholics….by the state of their souls.

But meanwhile, down here on planet Earth, the problem is that the Vatican, under the occupation of the enemies of the Church, has attempted to redefine Catholicism according to their own satanic principles – just as they said they would, as related in “The Devil’s Final Battle.” These enemies have installed liberal Popes and taken control of the internal governance of the Church, and by that means enforce their new religion. This enforcement takes 2 roads: one, they proclaim it as the official religion using a plethora of false arguments, and two, they punish those who disagree by abusing the laws of the Church. Case in point, of course: the SSPX.

So I think the question would be better put thusly: who decides which is the REAL Catholic religion?

We traditionalists know which is the real religion, but the Novus Ordo Catholics, deceived by false obedience and propaganda, claim the same thing. And they, not we, are in the driver’s seat for the time being.

I think that soon, the evil fruits of the evil revolution will dissipate the mainstream Church beyond recognition, and so perhaps the decision will be taken out of our hands. But here is my question:

Do we continue to merely strengthen our position, aided by heavenly grace and the natural flourishing of truth, and wait for the inevitable collapse of the Great Facade, or do we steer our lifeboats close to the Titanic and try to rescue as many as possible?

If we choose the latter, which, it seems, is our Catholic duty, then how is it that the lifeboats will come to be perceived as lifeboats, rather than as torpedoes and mines and icebergs?

More later, and thank you for the topic.
editor on February 1, 2012 at 12:40 am

Torkay,

If Christ had not instructed us to go out into the whole world and spread the Faith, then we could batten down the hatches and enjoy life. I’m glad you noted the catch in the headline because while, of course, it is God who decides who are the “good Catholics” that is not how it sometimes comes across, when those who think of themselves as “traditional” Catholics speak as if they’ve already decided who is and who is not, a “good Catholic”. I do not think we can accurately define as a “traditional” Catholic, someone who merely attends the Traditional Latin Mass. There’s a whole lot more to it than that. Also, those of the mentality that they are a separate caste altogether from the hoi polloi in the parishes, it seems to me, rule themselves out of the “Traditional” Catholic Club (so to speak!) We must leave that sort of judging to God and get on with being Catholic apostles.

Someone on another thread made the point that those who focus on themselves, their own spritual lives, attending Masses at every opportunity (laudable, of course, and they are very blessed to be free to do that) praying the 15 decades every day and various novenas, pilgrimages etc. should be showing forth the fruits of this spirituality.

That is spot on. Frankly, when I consider the people I know who regard themselves as “traditional” Catholics and who fit the above description but who would never think of joining us on one of our leafleting enterprises nor attend a meeting to hear (pray for and challenge) a dissenter attacking the Faith, it leaves me speechless. It is just not part of their thinking at all. They think, presumably, that if they attend enough Masses, say enough prayers, and keep their heads down, that will please God and save their souls.

It’s the very opposite of what I was taught at school and in my parish prior to Vatican II, and it is the very antithesis of everything that the saints and martyrs stood for – or rather, refused to stand for! The great saints did not hesitate to speak out, write to popes, trek around the countryside, as did St Francis de Sales, putting pamphlets through people’s doors and on trees countering Protestant heresies, and of course, even give their life’s blood in defence of the Faith when it was attacked in their times. How little we are asked to do, by comparison.

So, to answer, specifically, what you asked elsewhere, i.e. what can we actually DO …

Lots of things. If every so called “traditional” Catholic submitted a letter for publication – even a very short, one paragraph letter – to even one of our Catholic newspapers on a weekly/monthly basis, to challenge error and heresy, that would be a lot of lights in the darkness. The editor has to read these letters, even if they never see the printer. That’s one very simple thing that anyone and everyone could do.

The Vatican II course that gloria and I attended in St Aloysius last week, reported on another thread, was attended by around 30 Modernists. No other Catholic spoke out (one man said something but very quietly and I, for one, couldn’t hear a word so that was useless) and yet I received copies of the advertisement which readers had picked up from the back of the church and sent to me/handed me after Mass in the tearoom. The implied message was either “look at this, isn’t it awful?” (pointless) OR YOU GO ALONG TO THIS – I SURE AIN’T (laziness). Yet, if even another two or three of them had gone along, that would have meant there were five prophetic voices speaking out to defend the Faith and educate the ignorant audience instead of just two. The arithmetic is simple.

Letters, meetings. That’s for starters. The other thing easily done is to distribute good literature. Fatima literature. Catholic Truth newsletters: we’ve now put a “FREE” medallion on the front of the newsletter, to encourage readers to leave their edition at the back of their local or city centre churches, when finished with them, in the hope that others will pick them up and begin the process of educating or re-educating themselves in true Catholicism. In Scotland, anything marked “FREE” will go in jig time, so there’s something simple, again, that anyone can do.

Where there are Catholics, Torkay, there are opportunities to educate. That is our work. It’s not about winning the argument. It’s about exercising the prophetic vocation we take from our Confirmation – and the prophetic vocation is essentially to warn. We are Soldiers of Christ. And, apart from a readiness to enter into battle when necessary, a soldier who doesn’t care about the safety of his peers in danger in the middle of a war, isn’t much of a soldier. In our case, we must have concern for the spiritual safety of our Catholic brothers and sisters who are at the mercy of Modernist priests such as the Jesuit running the Vatican II course in Glasgow. The fact that they don’t want to hear what we have to say is irrelevant. We have to speak out, whether in a group situation or, preferably and probably more effectively, on a one-to-one basis with individuals. We must not miss opportunities to do this.

Above are some examples of some of the things we can all do without too much trouble. What we most definitely CANNOT do, Torkay, is “continue to merely strengthen our position, aided by heavenly grace and the natural flourishing of truth, and wait for the inevitable collapse of the Great Facade…”

Not if we love the Church.
Petrus on February 1, 2012 at 7:38 am

Editor,

I couldn’t agree more. I dislike describing myself as a “traditional” Catholic. You are either a Catholic or you’re not. God alone can judge who is truly Catholic, according to the disposition of the soul. I think a lot of Catholics would do well to remember that.

I must say,m I thought your editorial in the January edition covered this topic well. I think you said somewhere else that it’s not about winning the argument. I agree. Surely charity is the key? If we leave errors uncorrected and unchallenged then we allow souls to be led astray. This is completely uncharitable. We should remember that St Paul wrote that charity is greater than faith (and hope).

Regarding what can be done, I think you give a good summary. What I will say is that maintaining friendships with Catholics in parishes is extremely useful. People often think that defending the faith and correcting errors is confrontational. It doesn’t have to be. I had a lengthy exchange of ideas with a very nice Extraordinary Minister in my parish. I sent her the relevant documents etc and answered all her questions. She is still an Extraordinary Minister (I think) but who knows what will become of that exchange of ideas?

I think it’s important to play to your strengths. If you find it difficult to attend meetings, or to speak out, then write letters. It’s good to get letters published in the secular press too. As the editor said, leave some newsletters at the back of your parish. I know of someone who attended the Catholic Truth Fatima Conference in 2009 and took a whole load of literature with him, put it in a brown envelope and popped it through his parish priest’s door. Someone else I know of forwards emails from the Fatima Centre to local priests.

I think the danger today is that some Catholics withdraw from the “marketplace” and retreat into the safety of their own home and SSPX Church. What would the great Saints say to that? St Dominic was out there in the marketplace “giving it laldy” as we say in Glasgow. We should absolutely do the same, each in our way.
editor on February 1, 2012 at 9:45 am

Petrus,

I agree with you, agreeing with me! You make a very important point that discussions do not have to be “confrontational”. Two things; when I felt forced to interrupt the priest at the Vatican II meeting last week, I tried to do so politely and with apology for so interrupting. He was perfectly fine with that, dismissed my apologies – until someone from the audience identified me and he changed his tune. Still, the point is, if it is in your nature to speak out in that way, it can be done courteously and then you have a captive audience who at least hear the truth, whether or not they accept it, is up to them.

And of course in one-to-one conversations with individuals, there is no need for agression although it must be said that the Extraordinary Minister of whom you speak is something of an exception. In my experience they nearly always get very agitated when they are faced with the fact that they are not supposed to be handling the Blessed Sacrament. Even when chapter and verse is quoted to them, most, in my experience, are determined to continue. The devil knows what he is doing.

I also forgot to say that – as I pointed out in my January editorial – blogging is in itself an apostolate. A lot more people read blogs than contribute to them, and I’ve lost count of the number of times people have told me that it was reading this blog that turned them towards the traditional Faith. Thanks be to God.

Anyway, the devil is working very hard attacking the Church right now, sowing confusion everywhere. It is a real pity that so many Catholics who think of themselves as “traditional” are happy to let him get on with it.
leprechaun on February 1, 2012 at 10:43 am

It is difficult to add to the wisdom shown in the outstanding posts already made to this thread.
However, may I reiterate what our priest said last Sunday, which was that there cannot be two versions of the Truth, and what St. Atahanasius said in the 4th Century: “You have the churches but we have the Faith”.
There are three players in this drama: Those who uphold Tradition; those who are trying to bring in a new One World religion (the Rhine Fathers and their ilk); and the inert “blind-loyalists” who are just going along as they are, thinking that by following their priests and bishops they are knowing,loving and serving God as the catechism says.
Apart from prayer for Divine intervention, the only weapon that I can see available to supporters of Tradition is education. Somehow, the faithful must have it explained to them that they have been deceived and led astray, and they although they may get to Heaven, it will be inspite of their religion and not because of it.
The “Catholic” Press have closed off any possibility of using the newspapers as a means of conveying the revelation. Catholic Truth and Christian Order are stalwart warriors, but I notice the Internet is coming into use on its Social Networking front as the communication medium of choice in the American Election campaigns.
Is there a case for Tradition to tap into this relatively new technology as a method of contacting the Faithful?
Does anyone wish to join me in creating a bullet list that could be put forward to try and open a few minds?
What do you think?
editor on February 1, 2012 at 11:21 am

leprechaun,

Petrus ran a Facebook page for us but we decided to withdraw from that on discovering that the homosexuals who run Facebook were clamping down on anything they perceived to be “homophobia” – so we want nothing to do with that “social networking” site.

I hope your priest didn’t stop at merely pointing out the problem of the crisis in the Church – we all know that. He wouldn’t have had a congregation in front of him if his parishioners didn’t know that. So merely preaching that there is a crisis in the Church is not enough. I hope he exhorted everyone present to get active. I said to our traditional priest in our tearoom on Sunday that this congregation should be the power house of the archdiocese of Glasgow, with everyone actively taking the truth out into the archdiocese. He agreed.

Talk is cheap, leprechaun. It’s action we need now. Talk? Been there, done that, bought the T shirt. The T shirt reads: ACT NOW!
Monica on February 1, 2012 at 11:35 am

I’ve always found that when I go along to anything in the parish, people will say something about the event or just the parish in general that lets you say that you are very worried about what is happening in the Church. I usually say that all these child abuse cases just didn’t happen before and that there is something really going on that is hard to explain unless you accept that Pope Paul was right that the devil has gotten into the Church. That usually leads to a good conversation, I’ve found. It’s like you are just as puzzled as anyone else at it all, not being superior.

I do agree that we must take advantage of all these opportunities to inform other Catholics about what is going on. I also find that priests are just as confused as the laity are!
Margaret Mary on February 1, 2012 at 7:39 pm

I think Petrus is right – there is a “Protestant” spirit now in Catholic parishes but if you say that, people turn on you. You get called judgmental and “who do you think you are?”.

I my view, the answer to the crisis if Fatima and the Consecration of Russia. It would be good if we could have simple sheets to leave lying around churches and in cafes etc. Just a simple sheet with the basic facts about Fatima, because I agree with leprechaun that it is all about education. I know we should take the opportunity to inform people when we can about the truth, but I’ve nearly always met with hostility, even though I’m trying to be polite, so I’m thinking it would be easier and quite effective, I hope, to give out Fatima literature.
gloria on February 1, 2012 at 8:50 pm

Editor,

I agree with both you and Petrus in that discussions do not have to be “confrontational”, nor do they need to be aggressive. But it is not only Extraordinary Ministers become agitated when faced with the fact that they should not be handling the Blessed Sacrament. Priests too can become agitated but for other reasons.

Around 12 years ago I attended the Traditional Latin Mass (Indult Mass) I attended this Mass in my local Parish Church, For some reason I had not be able to attend Mass at the SSPX Church.

Mass began with the Priest and the man who usually served it. However they were accommpanied by a young boy and his sister, both aged about 10 to 12 years of age, both dressed as Altar servers within the Sanctuary.

I do not think that I was alone in my surprise of the presence of the girl within the Sanctuary. However I did not have the opportunity to speak to the Priest who had said the Mass. By chance I happened to speak to the Parish Priest just outside the Church and told him of my surprise at the girl serving Mass.

His answer was “Surely you know that girls serve Mass alongside the boys”.
Puzzlement must have shown my face and I replied.
“But, Father, it was never in the Rubrics for a female to serve the Traditional Latin Mass within the Sanctuary”.

He was annoyed and proceeded to ask my name and address and became further incensed when he realised that I lived in catchment area for this particular Parish. I was told to speak to him after Mass the following Sunday and present all my details for the Parish register. I did not argue or answer back. But for the following 12 weeks I was able to attend the Traditional Latin Mass at the SSPX Church, and by the time I did next go to my local Parish Church, there had been a movement of Priests within the Diocese so never met this Parish Priest again.

Disobedience to the command of this particular Priest I plead guilty, but I admit attending Mass at the SSPX Church prior to and during the time that I lived in this particular Parish. Hopefully I was not aggressive or confrontational towards this Priest.
Zita on February 1, 2012 at 9:48 pm

I don’t think you were at all aggressive or confrontational towards that priest. He sounds like a real bully, so well done you for ignoring his commands.

He probably didn’t know that girl altar boys are not allowed at traditional Latin Masses but the priest who said the Mass should have known. As somebody else has already said, the priests are just as ignorant as the laity these days, so maybe not.
Tomas de Torkay on February 2, 2012 at 2:06 pm

My problem with all of this is that I have, in the past, been too confrontational (Athanasius once teased me about putting my baseball bat away).

I agree that the approach is education, but I think it has to be education in the spirit of the Church. I am not exactly sure what that is, as I have not been in the “traditionalist” movement very long, but I think I know what it is not: e.g. NO clergy who, appearing to be quite faithful and well-intentioned, tell us that we have to proclaim the Gospel from the rooftops, etc.

Well, this to me is Protestant. If we are to proclaim anything, then it has to be with a Catholic spirit, which is imbued with humility, a deep sense of personal unworthiness, and with absolutely no intention of calling attention to ourselves or making accusations. Suppliant-soldiers.

As to where one starts, obviously it has to vary according to the person with whom you are speaking. I would be very intrigued, to say the least, if Editor could somehow lure an NO priest to this blog, or even several for that matter, or some devout NO laity, to discuss, in a non-threatening way, a few pertinent things, e.g.:

-What do they think a traditionalist is?
-Why are traditionalists scorned and condemned?
-Do they recognize that the Church is in a shambles?
-Why is the Church in a shambles?
-What did Paul VI mean, exactly, in referring to the smoke of Satan?
-What happened at Vatican II, and what do the documents themselves say?
-Is the VII revolution even faithful to the Council documents?
-What do they think was wrong with the pre-Vatican II Church?

So what do you say, Editor? Can you leave an enticing trail of breadcrumbs from some NO sacristy to our door? Is there a priest out there who is willing to explore these things, anonymously, in depth, without getting defensive? Or, if not a priest, maybe a staffer from your Catholic Herald, which appears to be the closest thing to orthodoxy on the NO side of the ocean.

OK, I may wake up now, at any moment…
Buddy on February 2, 2012 at 4:55 pm

Once a catholic, always a catholic. A very difficult subject in my opinion. I think the main problem lies with the clergy, either they see no problem, or they do see one, and don’t want to rock the boat, or they couldn’t care less one way or the other. Just one example of many I could give. A few years ago, I had occasion to hear a sermon about the lack of reverence being shown to the Blessed Sacrament. After he had heard my confession, I said to the priest in question that I thought it was a great talk and very timely. I then said to him that it cannot be right to see children taking the Host in their hand and all the risks that involves, ie dropping the Host, lack of reverence, lack of faith in the real Presence. His answer was that we cannot blame the children. I’m not joking.I then said one way to increase reverence was if more priests began to celebrate the Latin Mass,in line with the Pope’s wishes, and I met a brick wall. He said when they were turned around, as he called it, they found it difficult, but would not go back to saying the Latin Mass. After that I got a pat on the head and God bless you. The irony is he bemoaned the lack of reverence toward the Blessed Sacrament, and then parked a bulldozer on the avenue to the remedy. How sincere were his protestations?. Now if this is the case with priests, and that is only one of many, what hope is there with lay people who by and large take their cue from the priest in matters liturgical. I’m not saying we shouldn’t stick our necks out, but be prepared for lots of pats on the head. There’s an old saying, and I hope I have it right. When the priest is a saint, the people are fervent, when the priest is fervent, the people are holy, when the priest is holy, the people are good, when the priest is good, the people are decent,but when the priest is only decent, the people are godless.
Patricia on February 2, 2012 at 5:14 pm

Torkay,

I kind of imagine that Editor will ask you why you are asking HER to get a NO priest onto the blog – why don’t you do it?

Buddy,

That is it – your quote at the end is about righ, although I can’t remember where I first read it.
Tomas de Torkay on February 2, 2012 at 6:05 pm

Patricia

I really don’t know any NO priests, except the Dean at our Seminary, who also offers the TLM, and I haven’t seen or talked to him in several years. I’m persona non grata around here, you know, because of my old newsletter. Or maybe “untouchable” would be a better word.

Buddy

Your post is right on – er, I mean spot on, as you say over there. Similarly, what should our reaction be when Rome holds these Synods and proclaims that the Eucharist is the “source and summit of Christian life,” all the while being locked in to a liturgy which attempts quite successfully to obscure the true nature of the Eucharist, in order to avoid offending Protestants?

I call it schizophrenia. Our Lady called it the diabolical disorientation.
Monica on February 2, 2012 at 7:49 pm

I doubt very much if any modernist priests would come onto this blog. They haven’t got either the knowledge or the bottle.
editor on February 2, 2012 at 7:57 pm

Torkay,

The only novus ordo priests I know well enough to “challenge” in the way your describe, are those who are sympathetic to our plight, so that is pointless.

If you recall, a couple of diocesan clergy have been on here over the years but they just don’t get it. Not really.

I’m of the opinion that those who are in some way sympathetic to our cause are either too personally ambitious to promote their own clerical career (and succeeding!) or too apathetic for reasons known only to themselves.

Some clergy who are in some way on our wavelength in that they know that the bishops are off the wall, are not on our wavelengh in other ways, such as they would deny the importance of Fatima. Don’t have a love of Our Lady (very sadly, a common state for converts.)

The architect of the new Mass and his supporters publicly stated their intention to protestantize the Mass. We cannot be surprised, then, that those who have embraced it, both clergy and lay, have become protestantized. Luther was right: destroy the Mass and you destroy the Faith. Game, set and match!
Buddy on February 2, 2012 at 8:13 pm

Editor,
Excellent.

Tomas,
good question, I’m still looking at the stars.
Tomas de Torkay on February 3, 2012 at 1:23 am

Editor

I suppose you’re right (as long as your first name isn’t “Always”). Which is why I ended my 2:06 post by hinting that I was dreaming.

But that still leaves the essential question unanswered, which is: how do we change the mainstream Church’s perception of tradition and traditionalists? If the answer is “education,” then where does one start? Or is it just on a case-by-case basis?

I am tempted to think that a simple invitation to attend the TLM would be a good start, esp. in the face of the continuing dissipation of the Church. I myself had no clue, after I reverted, about the nature of the TLM, until a friend took me to the local “indult” Mass 2 years later. After that, it was all over for moi.

I imagine it would be quite a revelation for many NO Catholics to see the profound beauty, Catholicity, order and discipline in the TLM, and in the traditional parish.
editor on February 3, 2012 at 1:45 pm

Yes, Torkay, case by case – that is all we can do until we win the lottery, at which time we’ll organise a Billy Graham type rally in the Scottish Exhibition and Conference Centre! But by “case by case” we include, not only conversation with an individual where appropriate (beware of “casting pearls”) – it’s good to keep some simple Fatima cards or other sound literature in your pocket or handbag (do you have a handbag,Torkay? Does it match your outfit? I’m always available for fashion advice) or it can be in response to something you read: it might be an article, letter, or an advertisement in the Catholic press – anything where yuou can throw some light into the darkness.

Just don’t bury your head in the sand and decide to opt out of the battle. The thing about you, Torkay, is that you are mature enough to keep probing, there’s no throwing toys out of the pram with you. So, allow me to say this: if you still don’t understand what to do… you’ve tried. So forget it!

Only kidding!
Petrus on February 3, 2012 at 5:39 pm

I must admit that I have a problem with some of the sermons I hear from SSPX priests. They are certainly orthodox, but I think they need to be more practical. Priests should be instructing us how to handle ourselves in this crisis and exhorting us to go out and fight. You do get some sermonds like that, but I think we need more.
Louise on February 3, 2012 at 10:48 pm

Petrus,

Do you not think that the SSPX priests have to be fairly low key about how much we can do?
At least we have all the graces necessary available to help us to cope with the situations which arise. No?
Patricia on February 3, 2012 at 11:29 pm

Louise,

I really don’t think any priest who is concerned at the state of the Church can be “low key” about Catholic Action. If the traditional priests are not going to exhort the laity to action, who on earth will? They needn’t say anything about parishes, but they can make clear that we are in the battle, all of us, and nobody – least of all those who are obtaining the graces of the old rite Mass – can duck out of our duty to be apostles. I’m just amazed at how completely unaware so called “traditional” Catholics are that they have any duty at all, so the clergy need to speak out, not just to repeat doctrine or tell us what the background to the Gospel is (they do that in the novus ordo parishes all the time) but to exhort congregations to action. I agree with Petrus that this is not happening in certain places and it is a great pity because it lends credence to the false charge of “schismatic mentality.” My own feeling is that the priests try to protect the faithful from the poison of novus ordo contact but that is the wrong way round. We should be the leaven in the community, armed with knowledge of and graces from the traditional Catholic Faith.
Tomas de Torkay on February 4, 2012 at 4:20 am

Petrus

Occasionally we’ve had the bizarre SSPX sermon, though it is rare. A couple of years ago we had a visiting priest who spelled out all the details of what fasting was – 2 ounces of this, 3 ounces of that, a pinch of what-have-you, not to exceed whatever. We all kind of looked at each other and waited patiently for him to finish his weights and measures….

On the subject of apostolates, Our Prior recently began a Wednesday evening devotion to St. Joseph after Mass, part of whose purpose is to unite the various schismatic sects in this area to the true Church – we have SSPV, people who deny various minutiae and start their own churches, Feeney-ites, etc.

Editor

I’m going to see if I can break the ice with my “liberal” NO client – who is in administration at a prestigious Catholic girls’ school – at some point soon, and report back here with all the gory details. She told me she actually respects my opinion – well now, there’s a novel situation.

I received my St. Blaise blessing of the throat this evening, so I’m ready for some traditional yodeling on the rooftops….

I think this thread could be used by everyone for that purpose: report back on the results of our exhortations, compare notes, and try again.
editor on February 4, 2012 at 9:57 am

Torkay, good idea. I think it might be wise to have something to hand for her to take away and read. I’ve just had an email from someone who is printing off the Dan Graham article on the Mass from our website to give a lady who insists that the Mass is exactly the same as it has always been, only in the vernacular. Maybe that would be a good place for you to start, as well? Or Fatima. Whatever. Something easy to read and to the point.

I, too, got the St Blaise blessing – and met a newcomer to our chapel. She has given up trying to find a spiritual haven in the archdiocese of Glasgow. So, slowly but surely the poor beleagured faithful – those who have sufficient Catholic sense left to know that what they experience in their parishes is not right, will find their way back home. But note: she had someone she knew from the SSPX encouraging her to attend. It took time, but what if that person hadn’t told her and helped her? What if he had kept his head down and thought only of himself?

Great idea about feedback, Torkay. I look forward to hearing how you get on breaking the ice. Let’s just hope and pray that she doesn’t break your nose!
Margaret Mary on February 4, 2012 at 12:42 pm

I think what this archbishop says applies even more to traditional Catholics
It is difficult to take the attitude that the mainstream Church doesn’t matter when you read this.
http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/being-catholic-means-paying-a-price-says-detroit-archbishop
Tomas de Torkay on February 4, 2012 at 4:48 pm

Margaret Mary

I agree. But consider this quote from the article:

“The Pope’s way of talking about it [the liturgy]was to say that the liturgy is the experience of the Church and what should happen is that people experience at the Mass the existence of the Church as it is true through all time.”

Pray tell, Your Holiness and Your Excellency, how is a Catholic supposed to experience the existence of the Church through all time with a liturgy that stripped away the Catholic Faith of all time?

These clergy don’t even realize what they are saying. I refuse to believe that they are that ignorant.
Margaret Mary on February 4, 2012 at 5:47 pm

Torkay,

I agree but that is why I said that what he said applies even more to traditional Catholics. I should have said that it ONLY applies to traditional Catholics, I suppose. I.E. we have always to presume that such words apply to true Catholicism only – not the new version of it.
Tomas de Torkay on February 5, 2012 at 5:30 pm

I have some interesting news to report: yesterday I was invited to be one of the authors on a local blog to which I occasionally post, which means I can post my own articles, with commentary, rather than just posting comments. I would characterize it as a conservative Novus Ordo blog.

Needless to say, I accepted the invitation. Prayer answered.
editor on February 5, 2012 at 7:13 pm

Well done, Torkay. Let’s just hope the bloggers don’t come on a month or two later quoting your own words back at your as if they are some brand new heaven-sent revelation. (Sarcastic reference to my savage attack on Torkay on the Kneeling for Communion thread – I really am a cheeky girl!)

And make sure you link to that blog here when your articles appear and we will put in our tuppence worth.
leprechaun on February 5, 2012 at 9:38 pm

The homily this Sunday may explain the reason the SSPX is not more “in your face” about promoting Tradition. It was based on the parable of the hired men in the vineyard, and how those who had worked there all day thought they should receive more than those who had only worked since the late afternoon. In reality, those who had been more active felt that they had a greater claim on heaven than the others.
The priest explained the error in their thinking: It is not for them to decide who goes to heaven – that is in the gift of the vineyard owner, our Lord. It is He, not they, who decides.
The priest summed it up beautifully with the phrase “Follow the Providence, don’t try to organise the Providence”.
It contrasts with “Words are cheap, it’s action that counts”. Prayer and penance are the way to make progress.
Margaret Mary on February 6, 2012 at 1:18 am

leprechaun,

What your priest said contradicts everything the Church teaches about Catholic action. Prayer and penance are not a replacement for action – “faith without works” surely?

Pope St Gregory the Great said “The proof of love is in the works. Where love exists, it works great things. But when it ceases to act, it ceases to exist.”

Either you’ve misinterpreted what your priest said (and of course nobody can say who goes to heaven or who goes to Hell) or he is wrong.
Petrus on February 6, 2012 at 8:02 am

For he that said, Thou shalt not commit adultery, said also, Thou shalt not kill. Now if thou do not commit adultery, but shalt kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. [12] So speak ye, and so do, as being to be judged by the law of liberty. [13] For judgment without mercy to him that hath not done mercy. And mercy exalteth itself above judgment. [14] What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him? [15] And if a brother or sister be naked, and want daily food:

[16] And one of you say to them: Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; yet give them not those things that are necessary for the body, what shall it profit? [17] So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself. [18] But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith. [19] Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble. [20] But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

[21] Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar? [22] Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect? [23] And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God. [24] Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only? [25] And in like manner also Rahab the harlot, was not she justified by works, receiving the messengers, and sending them out another way?

[26] For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead.

James Chapter 2

We should believe that everything depends on God, but work as if everything depends on us.
Zita on February 6, 2012 at 12:10 pm

leprechaun,

I have never in my life heard that interpretation of the Parable of the hired men in the vineyard. It obviously cannot be right because as the others have pointed out, that interpretation completely contradicts what the Church has always taught about the lay vocation. Is your priest seriously saying that we all pray, do penance and nothing else? What if the great saints had done that, like Catherine of Siena, now a doctor of the Church because she was very active, writing to the pope and even rebuking him.

Are you going to withdraw from this blog in order to concentrate on prayer and penance? Let’s hope Martin Blackshaw and Howard Toon don’t do that or we wouldn’t have their marvellous articles on Communion in the hand to blog about!

Petrus has given loads of good quotes there from the bible so I’ll just throw in this one for good measure – “Go ye out into the whole world, baptising them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.”

I must say I’m very surprised that any SSPX priest would misinterpret that parable to encourage apathy in his congregation. It’s really astonishing.
Monica on February 6, 2012 at 12:54 pm

That parable means that we should not begrudge the graces given to people who come late to the Faith. So, e.g. converts or repentant sinners. The parable does not mean we should not act. That’s ridiculous. It would mean that the apostles themselves and the women who travelled with Jesus were disobedient by spreading the Gospel instead of praying and doing penance all the time. Fancy an SSPX priest saying that. It just shows that SSPX priests are not as knowledgeable as we would expect. I find that sermon very disappointing. After all, Our Lord Himself was very much “in your face” and so were the saints.
Carmel Books on February 6, 2012 at 1:21 pm

On the subject of Catholic Action: Angelus Press held a fascinating weekend of conferences on the theme ‘The Kingship of Christ’ last October. Several of the speeches related to Catholic Action including the ‘keynote’ speech delivered by Bishop Tissier de Mallerais.

The conferences were recorded and are available as a 10 CD set.

A book entitled ‘Reflections on the Kingship of Christ’ was also produced. It relates to the conferences but can also stand alone in its own right.

Another intriguing and very practical read concerning Catholic Action is Jean Ousset’s ‘Action’. Ousset was a close personal friend and collaborator of Archbishop Lefebvre.

All are available from Carmel Books.
editor on February 6, 2012 at 7:25 pm

Many thanks, Carmel Books, for those excellent resources.

We had a talk only a couple of weeks ago by a priest telling us about the shining example of Catholic Action in Ecuador in the person of their outstanding Catholic President, Gabriel Garcia Moreno. We’re including something on him in the March newsletter.
Carmel Books on February 6, 2012 at 7:57 pm

Very good, McEditor,

I look forward to reading it. Moreno was a real Catholic hero of the modern world; a martyr no less.

Now I wonder where books about Garcia Moreno might be obtained.

Not that I’m dropping any hints, ye understand.
Crossraguel on February 6, 2012 at 10:57 pm

His cause is one which will inevitably be advanced; his intercession sought constantly by our family. My son’s name includes Gabriel in his honour, truly a great Catholic example.

Carmel Books – which books do you have?
leprechaun on February 7, 2012 at 1:35 pm

Reference the labourers in the vineyard, it would appear that a wrong impression has been conveyed about the priests of the SSPX and Catholic Action. Allow me to try to clarify the situation:

The priest was not decrying Catholic Action by any means. The point he was making was that God will decide who goes to Heaven based on the result of His judgement of us when we die and that we cannot make Him admit us to Heaven based on the amount of Catholic Action we carried out whilst on earth.

Our actions in trying to win Catholics over to Tradition must be based on love – love of God and love of neighbour. Love of God leads us to place our trust in Him and accept that only His grace will move souls. This understanding prevents the zealots thinking it is their own skills that will win people over. It leads us to use the means given to us by God, namely prayer and sacrifices and the help of Our Lady and the saints.

Our Lady said at Fatima that the sacrifice she requires from us is for people to fulfil their duties of state. We are certainly soldiers of Christ, but the methods and weapons which each of us use are decided by the designs of God in our nature, in His Church, and in His plan for each of us. That is why performing the duties of our state is so important.

Regarding “in your face” action, there are alternatives. The Church has always considered the best foundation for spiritual action to be prayer and penance as practised in the enclosed communities. Why else would Bishop Fellay be encouraging us to offer a bouquet of 12m Rosaries to Our Lady? It is hardly fair to dismiss the spiritual side of Catholic Action as “Faith without good works”.

I hope this has corrected any misunderstandings.
Petrus on February 7, 2012 at 2:46 pm

Leprechaun,

I don’t think anyone dismissed the spiritual side of Catholic Action.

I think all of this is quite elementary. Faith and works are required. It goes without saying that we can’t force God to do anything. We show our Faith by our works. If we believe that everything depends on God but work as if everything depends on us then we cover our bases.
Patricia on February 7, 2012 at 5:02 pm

Petrus, that is exactly correct. Nobody on this blog has ever said that we can “convert” people or anything like it. It is completely elementary that God’s grace effects conversions, including a return to the full Traditional Catholic Faith. God, however, has chosen to use human beings as His instruments. St Paul said that “Faith comes by hearing” – he didn’t say “Faith comes by prayer.” Too many people use the importance of prayer (which is of central importance) as an excuse to do nothing else.

All of this is so very basic, that I am completely astonished that so much time has been devoted to debating it on this blog.
leprechaun on February 7, 2012 at 5:32 pm

Patricia and Petrus,

It is no doubt “basic” to some people, but the original purpose of this blog was for the education of those who could benefit from reading it.

Let us not forget that, lest we become seen as a rather exclusive club for the better informed.

Patricia’s swipe at prayer being used as a substitute for action on the street doesn’t sound over-expressive of love for one’s neighbour, but that is not for me to judge, as she may well point out.

As for astonishment at the debating of basic matters of faith on a blog devoted to the educating of those who wish to learn more, well . . . you couldn’t make it up.

Luv’n'stuff.
Carmel Books on February 7, 2012 at 6:13 pm

Crossraguel,

We have some stock of the following:

Gabriel Garcia Moreno – Honourable Mrs. Maxwell-Scott
Garcia Moreno – Rev. Fr. Augustine Berthe
The Greatest Catholic President: Garcia Moreno of Ecuador – Frank Rega

I have also just come across a book, which we soon hope to obtain stock of, entitled:

Encounter with History: Garcia Moreno, Catholic Leader of Latin America – Francisco Salazar Alvarado
gloria on February 7, 2012 at 6:16 pm

Prayer and penance is part of the spiritual side of the Church.
And, Patricia, I agree that it is God’s grace that effects conversions and a return to the full Traditional Catholic Faith. God does indeed use human beings as His instruments, I have two short stories to tell that may show in a very small sense how He does it.

The first is about Father Hugh Thawaites S.J.

During the second world war he was in the army and unfortunately at some point became a prisoner of war (for how long I have no idea). During this period he fell into discussions with a fellow prisoner who was Catholic and certainly knew his Faith. Father Thwaites at the time was a non-Catholic, and he either intended or had begun studying to become a Church of England Minister. But during his discussions about Catholic teachings he found himself at a loss to answer or deal with many things that he putting to him. At some point possibly after the war ended he took instructions and finally entered the Catholic Church and in time he studied and became a priest.

Another story I have from a relative who, during the 1950s and into the early 1960s, was a retreat promoter. It was during a stint in the Young Men’s Society that he took on this particular job, as no one else seemed too interested. Over the years he organised weekend retreats for men mostly with the Jesuits, although some were with the Passionist Fathers in Glasgow.

There was an occasion when one man told my relative at the end of the retreat he had just attended, that it had not only given him much to think about, but he also had gone to the Sacrament of Confession, attended Mass and received the Holy Eucharist for the first time in thirty years.

Two men who were affected by what they heard and saw in different circumstances and God’s Grace was most apparent in what these two men did afterwards. Thanks to the apostolic men who spoke to them about the Faith.
Patricia on February 7, 2012 at 6:20 pm

leprechaun,

I am surprised at your apparent lack of charity in saying this:

“…Patricia’s swipe at prayer being used as a substitute for action…”

I did not make or take any “swipes” but merely made a very obvious and utterly valid point. Prayer is NOT a substitute for action. A novice in a religious house who went to the chapel to pray when he/she should be sweeping out a room, would be on the carpet in no time.

As for “education” – of course, If someone had come onto the blog as a brand new blogger seeking answers to questions, and clearly did not know the basics such as as the importance of Catholic Action, I have no doubt that everyone would have been as patient as possible.

But you are not in that category. And, your SSPX priest is definitely not in that category.
Petrus on February 7, 2012 at 7:32 pm

Leprechaun,

We’ve had numerous educational posts explaining this parable and various other quotes from scripture to back up our points.

Patricia is right, if we spend all day praying and neglect our duty of state, will that please God? If I spend all day in front of the Blessed Sacrament, fail to go to work and care for my family, will I please God? Of course not!
leprechaun on February 7, 2012 at 7:47 pm

Patricia,

Members of the mystical body of Christ are supposed to love one another, even as Christ loves them.

Your disdain of Catholics who offer prayers and make sacrifices as opposed to alternative forms of Catholic Action sits ill with Christ’s requirement that we should love our neighbour. I try to do the best with the talents I have been given, and modesty forbids me from listing them but Catholic Truth Scotland has been a beneficiary as you know.

I shall always have cause to be grateful to the gentle contributors on this blog who guided me to a better understanding of the Faith, and for all the book titles they suggested I should read to further my understanding.

May God bless them all and keep them in the palm of His hand.
Petrus on February 7, 2012 at 8:07 pm

Leprechaun,

There has been no “disdain for Catholics who offer prayers and make sacrifices”. However, it is erroneous to believe that prayer and sacrifices are all we are required to do. Prayer and sacrifice are the basics. That should speak for itself.

You said yourself that we are bound to fulfill our duties of state. We must educate ourselves and others. No one ever said that our Catholic Action had to be “in your face”. In fact, lengthy posts have explained that quite often Catholic Action is quietly speaking with others on a one to one basis.

So, with respect, I don’t really get the point you are trying to make…
Margaret Mary on February 7, 2012 at 8:30 pm

leprechaun,

I think you have misunderstood Patricia and possibly others. Nobody has said that prayer and penance are not important, in fact everyone has said the opposite. Patricia said prayer is of “central importance” and I haven’t detected any “disdain” at all on this blog only concern that we should think of the best ways of taking the truth to the novus ordo Catholics. Is not that a charitable thing to do or do you really think we should do nothing more than pray for them even though Our Lord said that it is not those who say “Lord, Lord” who will enter the Kingdom of Heaven but those who do the will of My Father”?

You seem to be saying on the one hand that prayer and penace is all that is needed and then on the other hand saying that you do lots of Catholic Action yourself. So I really have to agree with Petrus by saying that what is the point you are making? We all know that we should love one another but you don’t love our fellow Catholics by leaving them in their ignorance. Teachers don’t say “I’ll just pray for my pupils” – they teach, AND pray for them.

I’ve just read your last post again and I see that you do make a false dichotomy between prayer, penance and Catholic Action, you wrote: “Your disdain of Cathlics who offer prayers and make sacrifices as opposed to alternative forms of Catholic Action sits ill with Chist’s requirement that we should love our neighbour.” But prayer and penance should not be “an alternative form of Catholic Action” – everybody should pray and make sacrifices, so that their Catholic Action will be fruitful.

Do you really think that when editor and gloria went to that meeting in St Aloysius a couple of weeks ago that they didn’t need to pray or make sacrifices? I imagine that just attending that meeting was a sacrifice!

There’s a lot of confusion in your posts, leprechaun, if you don’t mind me saying so and I say so in real charity, not mushy “love” as the word has come to mean. If I have offended you, I apologise, but I really do urge you to read the posts on this blog again because there is absolutely nothing here that is not absolutely correct Catholic doctrine on the lay vocation.
Oremus on February 7, 2012 at 9:09 pm

I am a revert to the Faith and I agree completely with Leprechaun. My conversion is nothing short of miraculous, all down to PRAYERS, not someone have a one-to-one with me about where I was heading. What did Our Lady of Fatima say – “Pray, pray, a great deal and make sacrifices for sinners, for many souls go to Hell because they have no one to make sacrifices and pray for them”.

According to St Alphonsus Liguori, our choice between Heaven and Hell depends on whether or not we pray. “A person who prays will certainly be saved, but a person who does not pray will certainly be lostt. All who have been saved were saved through prayer. All who have been lost were lost through their neglect of prayer”.He wrote of himself, ” Every time I preach, I repeat these words: O people, pray, pray, pray!

And St Teresa of Avila wanted to stand on a high mountain to cry out constantly to the world: Pray, pray, pray”.
St Bonaventure declares, ” At any hour man can gain more by humble prayer than the whole world is able to give him”.

Holy Scripture exhorts us to no other work so frequently as to prayer: ” Let nothing hinder thee from praying always” (Ecclus. 18:22).” Be prudent therefore and watch in prayers.” (1 Ptr: 4:7). ” Instant in prayers” (Rom 12:12). ” By all prayer and supplication, praying at all times in the spirit”(Eph 6:18).

And Our Lord – ” ought always to pray and not to faint” (Luke 18:1).

We were not told to blog, bulldoze or write letters to Catholic newspapers. The Consecration of Russia is not going to happen because of protest or petition but by PRAYER, REPARATION and SACRIFICE. This has been made very clear to us.

And on that note I am off to say the Rosary. This is my one and only post. I won’t be visiting again as this is a waste of very valuable time when I should be PRAYING. Fighting a spiritual battle by secular means is just not going to be effective. Pick up your Rosary – Our Lady promises, ” The Rosary shall be a powerful armour against hell; it will destroy vice, decrease sin, and defeat heresy.”
Petrus on February 7, 2012 at 9:19 pm

Words fail me. They really do. What is the point of Catholic Truth? What’s the point of Fr Gruner’s Fatima Apostolate? What about the Legion of Mary? Faith without good works is dead. St Paul wrote that we may have faith to move mountains, but if we have not charity then we are nothing.

I’m not saying anymore. There’s more than enough information on this thread already. I’m casting my pearls before swine.
Oremus on February 7, 2012 at 9:39 pm

I have said nothing about doing nothing aside from prayer. This is an assumption you are making about me. But prayer is the practice of faith, hope and charity. End of.
Margaret Mary on February 7, 2012 at 9:59 pm

Oremus, you cannot have it both ways. Your first post is clear. ONLY prayer. Now you say “I have said nothing about doing nothing aside from prayer.” Yes you did. You gave us a list of things, including blogging, that is a waste of time. I doubt very much if the great saints would have absented themselves from blogging if that had been an option in their day.

I’d like to know just how you came to return to the Faith. You say as a result of prayer – obviously. Everything is a result of prayer. But did not God use any human instruments at all? Tell us the story of your “reversion” to the Faith. I’m genuinely interested.
Petrus on February 7, 2012 at 10:05 pm

Margaret Mary,

There’s a distinct lack of clarity in these posts. I can’t follow them.

We all know how important prayer is. That goes without saying. Why they feel the need to keep labouring the point is beyond me. Save your perils, don’t cast them, MM!
editor on February 7, 2012 at 11:06 pm

Here’s an interesting few words from the Mistress of Prayer – the great Carmelite saint and mystic, St Teresa of Avila…

“The most potent and acceptable prayer is the prayer that leaves the best effects. I don’t mean it must immediately fill the soul with desire . . . The best effects (are) those that are followed up by actions; when the soul not only desires the honor of God, but really strives for it.” (St. Teresa of Avila)

I think that sums up what everyone has been saying, really, so allow me to close down this thread, with sincere gratitude to you all, for your contributions to the topic discussion.

Many thanks – God bless.

Comments are now closed.